#1
Reently, a guy approached us about booking a show that this bar, Although was are minors, we saiys we can play legally. He wants us to sell 25 tickets at !0 dollars each, where he'll get the money, then give us free 25 tickets to sell. Also, we get $5 for every peron who buy tickets at tyhe door to see us. We have an hour slot.

Is this how it should work (money-wise)? He originally wanted us to pay a $100 deposit, then we owe him $150. If this the way shows work. Keep in mind, we're 13 and 14 year olds, my former band (way worse) got paid the same, are were hired, so I'm confused at how this wo0rks. My newer better band hasn't been paid for a show yet.
#5
I switched off at "saiys".
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if this goes in someones signature im gunna be pissed


Quote by jimithrash
what do you mean by goat
#7
It's a well known scam run by dodgy promoters called 'Pay to play'.
Basicaly, you do all the work, all the promotion, sell all the tickets ect. and he makes all the money.
Stay well away from him, and even warn your friends about him
You can hire a venue and do the exact same thing for yourself, only difference is, you'll keep all the profits.
#8
Never, ever pay to play unless it is a genuinely good opportunity that you wouldn't otherwise get anywhere else, that will gain you really incredible exposure. Not Joe's Bar and Grill kind of thing... that's for sure.

I'm thinking along the lines of something televised that maybe you have to pay an entrance application fee, and then play a charity show that goes live to TV or something....(and not just community TV/Radio, but network TV/commercial Radio)

Around here, this kind of structure that you are talking about (idea's the same, but the numbers can be anything) isn't all that unusual and CAN work for you if you really hustle stuff. In fact, we worked with a promoter for our CD release party that was based loosely on a structure something like that. (but he was offering us quite a bit in return....) We drew over 100 people and made some pretty decent money off it.

Let's say you get 50 people to come out. After you give the promoter his first $250, the rest is yours. So you'd get $250 for you too. His structure prevents him from booking a band that doesn't bring anyone out. Often times, when they ask you to buy the tickets from the promoter up front, that guarantees the promoter doesn't lose money. Whether you bring people out at that point is largely inconsequential. But, he seems to have waived that, which was nice of him. (given that I personally don't like that style of doing business)

In other words, the only time you pay to play under this kind of structure is if you don't bring anyone out.

What I'm curious about is the fact that you get half of each ticket through the door if they come to see you. (yes, they have someone asking "Who are you here to see?" to each person who comes in, if there is more than one band, which there usually is) What if you sold NO tickets in advance, and had 25 people come through the door? Then you'd get $125, whereas if you sold all of them in advance, you'd get nothing and he'd get $250?


CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#9
Quote by SlackerBabbath
It's a well known scam run by dodgy promoters called 'Pay to play'.
Basicaly, you do all the work, all the promotion, sell all the tickets ect. and he makes all the money.
Stay well away from him, and even warn your friends about him
You can hire a venue and do the exact same thing for yourself, only difference is, you'll keep all the profits.

We keep half the money...
#10
Quote by mzhang13
We keep half the money...

Really? A whole half? for doing 'all' the work?
Did you know that the standard promoters cut is 70/30 in favour of the band? And that's after the promoter has done 'all the work' regarding promotion and ticket sales.
Still think it's a good deal?
And how come you have to make his money first before you can make your own money?
Why doesn't he just give you 50 tickets and take half the profits of your ticket sales?
I'll tell you why, because he doesn't think you can sell any more than 25 tickets, so he's making sure he keeps all the money from the sale of your 25 tickets.


This scam crops up all over the place and is slightly modified to the point where the band will either lose money, break even or make a tiny amount of money for doing all the work.
Now, you can accept that if you want to or you can do everything that you're doing for him for yourselves at a different venue and keep 100% of the door profits.
Which do you think would be the most sensible course of action?

Seriously bud, don't allow guys like this to treat you like a sucker, you're worth more than that.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Aug 2, 2008,
#12
Quote by SlackerBabbath
Really? A whole half? for doing 'all' the work?
Did you know that the standard promoters cut is 80/30 in favour of the band? And that's after the promoter has done 'all the work' regarding promotion and ticket sales.
Still think it's a good deal?
And how come you have to make his money first before you can make your own money?
Why doesn't he just give you 50 tickets and take half the profits of your ticket sales?
I'll tell you why, because he doesn't think you can sell any more than 25 tickets, so he's making sure he keeps all the money from the sale of your 25 tickets.


This scam crops up all over the place and is slightly modified to the point where the band will either lose money, break even or make a tiny amount of money for doing all the work.
Now, you can accept that if you want to or you can do everything that you're doing for him for yourselves at a different venue and keep 100% of the door profits.
Which do you think would be the most sensible course of action?

Seriously bud, don't allow guys like this to treat you like a sucker, you're worth more than that.


Thanks Slacker. And thank you for posting extremely thorough posts on people's threads. You are appreciated. Thanks again. And I've decided not to do the show.

Oh yeah, and thank you Chris.
#13
i know everyone has already said it, but never ever do pay to play. it really is awful, and people continuing to it just perpetuate it and make it acceptable.
my name is matt. you can call me that if you like.
#14
Quote by mzhang13
Thanks Slacker. And thank you for posting extremely thorough posts on people's threads. You are appreciated. Thanks again. And I've decided not to do the show.

Anytime bud. And may I also say... good decision.


Quote by Gurgle!Argh!
i know everyone has already said it, but never ever do pay to play. it really is awful, and people continuing to it just perpetuate it and make it acceptable.

Well said and I agree 100%

Listen up folks.
Pay to play gigs are the bain of the music industry, run by unscrupulous guys who call themselves 'promoters' but wouldn't know how to (or just plain 'can't be bothered' to) actualy do any real 'promoting' and who will not hesitate to take advantage of young kids just starting out. (Have you noticed, you never seem to see any older bands on their bills? And if there are any, they are generaly on a much better deal than the younger bands.)
They generaly take kids who are inexperienced and desperate to just play a gig and fleece 'em. Which is a shame because the venues they use are usualy right in the city centre and would actualy be great venues that could generate enough cash for everyone to make a fair wage if only they were promoted properly, which means that not only will they rip you off, but that they are also ruining the gigging scene that so many of us rely on to get our names about and promote ourselves. And in this day and age of fewer and fewer really good venues, that makes it doubly a shame.
They are some of the worst sharks out there, so watch out for them and steer well clear.

Slacker.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Aug 1, 2008,
#15
Hmm, this kinda advice should be stickied....

EDIT: But then again, I haven't been here long enough for my opinion to count much haven't I...
Last edited by mzhang13 at Aug 2, 2008,
#17
Quote by slayerfrk
learn to type and speak i dont get what ur trying to say... ur selling tix for 0 dollars? thats free..


We all know that

The exposure is worth more than the money they are likley to earn

That's from experience
#18
...but you don't get exposure playing for 10 people at Joe's Bar and Grill.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#19
If people want exposure but are not too worried about getting paid for a gig, then they should play lots of charity events, at least that way someone worthwhile is gonna benefit rather than some shark of a promoter.
#20
I have another question though.

They say they have to pay the venue and extra fee to have an all-ages show (the kind we're looking for) because most people there won't drink. Is this true? And if yes, does it mean he's giving us a fair deal (we're probably not going to do it, but we want to know if this is true in case this kinda thing turns up again).
#21
Part of it is to make up for kids showing up and not drinking. Part of it is for additional security they might want to hire to keep a bunch of teenagers in line while they're out at a bar.

We were going to have our CD release all-ages, but it was too much of a pain and there was an additional expense, so we decided not to.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#22
Some bands do pay to play. From what I remember from Opeths biography on their website, Mikael said this concerning Ozzfest (or something along the lines of this)

"Pay to play? **** you Sharon Osbourne, we don't pay to play, we play to get payed."

Maybe if Slaytanic sees this he can clarify.

Also, don't do pay to play. If Mikael Akerfelt doesn't do it, you shouldn't do it.
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#23
Quote by mzhang13
I have another question though.

They say they have to pay the venue and extra fee to have an all-ages show (the kind we're looking for) because most people there won't drink. Is this true? And if yes, does it mean he's giving us a fair deal (we're probably not going to do it, but we want to know if this is true in case this kinda thing turns up again).


Actualy, many bars can make a lot more money on their mark up on soft drinks than they do on the markup on alcohol. A pint of cola can often cost almost the same as a pint of beer in a bar, but is cheaper for the bar to buy in bulk than beer because it's subject to different taxation laws.

It may be bullsh!t but then, I have heard of venues charging extra if the place is going to be full of underage kids so it's plausable. But he's still ripping you off.
Responsible promoters basicaly take on the gamble of making a loss when they organise a show, which is OK, they know what they are doing and it is an educated gamble, especialy with a good promotion behind the gig, it's an accepted risk they take on that goes with the job, and they cirtainly don't ask the bands that they have on to pay for all the costs before they can make any money for themselves.

The way a responsible promoter usualy works when he hires a venue is that the first date he has there, he pays for the venue hire out of his own pocket up front, then out of the profits he makes on that night, he pays for the next date, and so on, and so on.
So why does he need bands to pay for it? Obvious really, he simply makes more money if he can sucker someone else into paying the costs for him.

Let's imagine this guy who offered you the gig putting you on a 4 band bill one night. He'll get $250 from you and three other bands, making $1000 in total, the venue hire will be around half of that if I know my promoters.
So, he's made at least $500 profit just from what the bands have given him to allow them to play, and he hasn't even lifted a finger to do any promotional work.
If any band manages to sell more than their initial 25 tickets, fair enough, they'll make more money, but as I mentioned before, this scam is usualy done with young inexperienced bands. Selling tickets for them is a lot harder than selling tickets for a more established band, but it doesn't really matter to him if you sell any tickets or not, he's already got your money.
He's already guaranteed $500 profit just from the bands payment to be in the show. If he can do that in 3 times a week, he's pulling in $1500 for doing nothing more than hireing a venue. It doesn't matter if the venue is practicaly empty, he's made his money, the venue have made their money from the hire costs and it's all been payed for by 4 young bands just looking for a gig at a decent venue.

Quote by shadesofanger
Some bands do pay to play. From what I remember from Opeths biography on their website, Mikael said this concerning Ozzfest (or something along the lines of this)

"Pay to play? **** you Sharon Osbourne, we don't pay to play, we play to get payed."

Maybe if Slaytanic sees this he can clarify.

Also, don't do pay to play. If Mikael Akerfelt doesn't do it, you shouldn't do it.

That does happen quite a lot actualy. When a major band goes on tour, quite often the supporting slot can go to the highest bidder, but this is in the relm of the professional musician, the money they shelled out to be there is tax deductable and they are almost guarranteed a rise in record sales from supporting a major act, plus they have all the merchandise sales from the gigs too, infact, more often than not, the money to pay for their slot on the tour and any living expenses needed while on the tour will actualy be provided by their record company under the heading of 'promotion.'
Ozzfest will probably be no different for most of the bands apart from the largest bands on the bill.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Aug 3, 2008,
#24
Quote by SlackerBabbath

That does happen quite a lot actualy. When a major band goes on tour, quite often the supporting slot can go to the highest bidder, but this is in the relm of the professional musician, the money they shelled out to be there is tax deductable and they are almost guarranteed a rise in record sales from supporting a major act, plus they have all the merchandise sales from the gigs too, infact, more often than not, the money to pay for their slot on the tour and any living expenses needed while on the tour will actualy be provided by their record company under the heading of 'promotion.'
Ozzfest will probably be no different for most of the bands apart from the largest bands on the bill.


I do believe though, Opeth at the time were doing everything by themselves. I can't remember, and I really don't want to read the book of a biography Mikael wrote again.

Oh well you know your stuff
Quote by hostilekid
shadesofanger, you're my hero.


Quote by GoldenBlues
So I was wondering, are black people capable feeling love? I mean can their brains comprehend that kind of emotion, or are they not programmed that way.
#25
Quote by shadesofanger
I do believe though, Opeth at the time were doing everything by themselves.

Which would explain their reaction to Sharon Osbourne. Having to pay out money to play a gig like Ozzfest suddenly becomes a very big deal when you have no record company behind you to pick up the bill.