#1
So most of the songs i've written so far on guitar have all stayed in the same key and either gone to the relative minor/major or to a different mode to change it up. That got boring so i'd like it if you guys listed some of the most common modulation strategies you've used. Thanks in advance
#2
Try using Lydian instead of Major, its harder, but the sharp fourth can make it really interesting.
#3
The most common way I change the key is to just change the key (usually to a closely related key). It makes it really obvious, and that's not (always) a bad thing.

Other methods include using pivot chords and secondary dominants. These still usually only get you to closely related keys.

Tritone substitution can get you to more distant keys
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#4
would a secondary dominant just be making the second of the scale a dominant chord and changing key or what?
#5
look at the circle of fifths similiar keys are gonna be easier to change to

like C it will be easier to change to F or G you just gotta find a god pivot chord to move into that key

it is gonna be hard to modulate from CMAJ to F#MAJ or GbMAJ because of the # na dflate in the scale/key

you can also do something like acircle progression i believe it is pivoting off the 5th so you would move from CMAJ to GMAJ toDMAJ as my understanding but i am not exactly sure. i don't exactly use technique/ fully understand them
#6
Quote by bradleysmith
would a secondary dominant just be making the second of the scale a dominant chord and changing key or what?
Secondary dominants are out of key chords, so yeah, you could use them to change key.

They're basically when you use the major (dominant?) chord thats seven semitones up (or 5 semitones down) from a diatonic chord.

So say we're in the key of C, and I want to use the secondary dominant of Dm, the chord would be AMaj. A maj is an out of key chord in the key of C major, which is fine as Dm moves well to and from A maj. This chord is noted as an ii/V chord, or simply as an I or IV or V chord if your changing keys (depends on what key you want to change to).

Seeing as your the T/S, heres a quize. If I'm in the key of G, and I want to use the secondary dominant of the third chord (iii). What chord is the secondary dominant and how is it noted?
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#7
Quote by demonofthenight
Secondary dominants are out of key chords, so yeah, you could use them to change key.

They're basically when you use the major (dominant?) chord thats seven semitones up (or 5 semitones down) from a diatonic chord.

So say we're in the key of C, and I want to use the secondary dominant of Dm, the chord would be AMaj. A maj is an out of key chord in the key of C major, which is fine as Dm moves well to and from A maj. This chord is noted as an ii/V chord, or simply as an I or IV or V chord if your changing keys (depends on what key you want to change to).

Seeing as your the T/S, heres a quize. If I'm in the key of G, and I want to use the secondary dominant of the third chord (iii). What chord is the secondary dominant and how is it noted?


so it would be Bminor to Emajor in this case and then i could use Emajor as the I,IV or V in my next progression?
#8
^ It would be F#7. I find it's easier to look at my target chord, then instead of playing my target chord, I would treat that as the i chord, thenplay the V7 a 5th above it.

So in G major, the iii chord is Bminor - a 5th up from there is F#7.
#9
Quote by mdc
^ It would be F#7. I find it's easier to look at my target chord, then instead of playing my target chord, I would treat that as the i chord, thenplay the V7 a 5th above it.

So in G major, the iii chord is Bminor - a 5th up from there is F#7.


oh i thought your supposed to go down a 5th not up a 5th
#10
Quote by bradleysmith
so it would be Bminor to Emajor in this case and then i could use Emajor as the I,IV or V in my next progression?
Close, the secondary dominant is F#major. Remember, it's 7 semitones up. You went 5 semitones up.

To mdc
Does it have to be a seventh chord? Or can it be a plain major chord?
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[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
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[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Aug 4, 2008,
#11
Plain major is fine
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#13
Quote by demonofthenight

To mdc
Does it have to be a seventh chord? Or can it be a plain major chord?


I always assume it's a seventh, since the term is 'secondary dominant'. Also, when its a seventh it tends to enhance the sound of the target chord (in this case B minor) to act like a i, which is known as tonicisation, which kinda makes sense I guess, since 'tonic' means the root, or the centre of, or 'home', however you want to decribe it really.
Last edited by mdc at Aug 4, 2008,
#14
Quote by mdc
since the term is 'secondary dominant'.
In this case 'dominant' refers to V being the dominant triad.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#15
Quote by Ænimus Prime
In this case 'dominant' refers to V being the dominant triad.


Ok, I thought that when you guys were saying 'major', I couldn't help thinking that you were harmonising beyond a triad. Yeah, if it's a triad then it's all good, but if you're stacking 7ths then it would be a V7.
#16
Quote by demonofthenight
Secondary dominants are out of key chords, so yeah, you could use them to change key.

They're basically when you use the major (dominant?) chord thats seven semitones up (or 5 semitones down) from a diatonic chord.

So say we're in the key of C, and I want to use the secondary dominant of Dm, the chord would be AMaj. A maj is an out of key chord in the key of C major, which is fine as Dm moves well to and from A maj. This chord is noted as an ii/V chord, or simply as an I or IV or V chord if your changing keys (depends on what key you want to change to).

Seeing as your the T/S, heres a quize. If I'm in the key of G, and I want to use the secondary dominant of the third chord (iii). What chord is the secondary dominant and how is it noted?



see i was I was ablre to get Bmin and F#MAJ but i think it might be a little confused about how it is notated.

would it be Bmin the iii and the secondary doinant the V of the next key so it would be

iii/V or possible what ever chord it is taking over as instaed of V

please help me

EDIT : another question when i change key does the Bmin become the tonic the F#MAJ or am i in the middle of a keychange and need to resolve to the new tonic?
Last edited by lbc_sublime at Aug 4, 2008,
#17
i personally find M7 chords to be good and as to what type of chord (I II IV V VII) dependent on what key im moving to and from. as mentioned before moving along the Co5 is generally the easiesy
#18
ok well i wa trying a progression I V iii IV inCmaj

so C G Emin F


where can i use the secondary dominant and what possibilties can i change to if i see some exaples with a progression i thik i may understand this way more
Last edited by lbc_sublime at Aug 4, 2008,
#19
Quote by demonofthenight
Secondary dominants are out of key chords, so yeah, you could use them to change key.

They're basically when you use the major (dominant?) chord thats seven semitones up (or 5 semitones down) from a diatonic chord.

So say we're in the key of C, and I want to use the secondary dominant of Dm, the chord would be AMaj. A maj is an out of key chord in the key of C major, which is fine as Dm moves well to and from A maj. This chord is noted as an ii/V chord, or simply as an I or IV or V chord if your changing keys (depends on what key you want to change to).

Seeing as your the T/S, heres a quize. If I'm in the key of G, and I want to use the secondary dominant of the third chord (iii). What chord is the secondary dominant and how is it noted?


the notation is actually V/ii, V/V etc. meaning V of ii, V of V, or whatever chord it's leading to.
#20
Well, go to related keys using pivot chords (sp?), are they those? I mean the ones that are common to both keys, etc....

I guess you can also change keys abruptely, but that isn't modulation.
If not just go to the relative minor, then to another relative key, etc...
I don't know how you would get to far away keys, like from Gmajor to Abminor....
#21
some other possibilities for that progression are...

C D7 G Em F ( I V/V V iii IV)

C G Em C7 F ( I V iii V/IV IV)

You can also try diminished chords a half step below the root of the chord you're moving to
#23
Quote by Stash Jam


You can also try diminished chords a half step below the root of the chord you're moving to


would that work something like this

C G Em Edim0(7) F

how would you notate this?

can you put the bb7 on there?

and what does this create to cause modulation isn't this something like a turnaround in blues?
#24
Quote by gonzaw
So how would you use tritone substitution to change keys?

Like Fmaj Db7 Gbmaj?
OR something like that? (Going from Cmaj to Gbmaj)


Yeah that's correct. You're using Db7 as a sub for G7.

Also Diminished Seventh chords have two sets of tritones in them which can be used to sub - I've no guitar so struggling to visualise but I think you could go
Ddim7 - Db7. Have no idea how that sounds right now.
#25
Quote by lbc_sublime
would that work something like this

C G Em Edim0(7) F

how would you notate this?

can you put the bb7 on there?

and what does this create to cause modulation isn't this something like a turnaround in blues?



Yes that could work, it's basically the same ideas as secondary dominants, you can use the diminished chord as a substitute since they have the same function (a diminished triad (vii0) can be seen as a rootless V7. You can also use the bb7 to make a fully diminished chord, which is a symmetrical chord.

Edim7 is E G Bb Db (enharmonically spelled) So it can be Edim7 Gdim7 Bbdim7 and Dbdim7 depending on the context, which opens up some options for chords/new keys that can follow

Fully diminished chords also work for turnarounds and chromatically connecting chords in progressions like Dm- G - C - C#dim7 - Dm which is a ii V I with a turnaround.
#26
Quote by Stash Jam
Yes that could work, it's basically the same ideas as secondary dominants, you can use the diminished chord as a substitute since they have the same function (a diminished triad (vii0) can be seen as a rootless V7. You can also use the bb7 to make a fully diminished chord, which is a symmetrical chord.

Edim7 is E G Bb Db (enharmonically spelled) So it can be Edim7 Gdim7 Bbdim7 and Dbdim7 depending on the context, which opens up some options for chords/new keys that can follow

Fully diminished chords also work for turnarounds and chromatically connecting chords in progressions like Dm- G - C - C#dim7 - Dm which is a ii V I with a turnaround.


Good stuff. Louis Armstrong's Wonderful World makes use of the Diminished Seventh as well.

Dminor - F#dim7 (subbed from D#dim7) - Gmin7 - C