#1
If messing about using the notes of a C major scale over an A chord is aeolian, and the same notes over an E is phrygian, then would playing over a two chord "harmony" of E and A be like playing in both modes? Phreolian?
#2
Phreolian. Dude, thats awesome. Reminds me of ordinary, god bless him.

Seriously though, what your doing there is called a polychord (I think). Personally I'd call that chord that chord Am9 (ACE + EBG = ACEGB), so IMO it would still be aeolian. Nice idea though.
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#3
Dont think so. In this case I think it would be whatever the root note is, or whatever scale YOU choose to play in. If you have the harmonic foundation for both A nat minor and E phrygian then whose to say you cant play in either?
#4
Quote by Don Rickles
If messing about using the notes of a C major scale over an A chord is aeolian, and the same notes over an E is phrygian, then would playing over a two chord "harmony" of E and A be like playing in both modes? Phreolian?


that's too funny.

Demon summed it up in one tbh. Em triad and Am triad will create Am9. You'll be in A Aeolian.
#6
Quote by mdc
that's too funny.

Demon summed it up in one tbh. Em triad and Am triad will create Am9. You'll be in A Aeolian.
Dunno it could be C ionian or lydian over a CMaj13? What would decide the tonality of the chord in this case? What the bass or something, or maybe the notes most used in the solo (like if an Am is arpeggiated its an Am and if the C is arpeggiated its C)?

Goddamn, whoever invented inverted chords for anything other than jazz or classical was a cruel bastard. I remember the time when I thought that the lowest note was always the root.
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#7
Cmaj13: C E G B D F A

C ionian: C D E F G A B
C lydian: C D E F# G A B


Tis ionian. Lydian is used over maj7#11 chords. It is possible though to use lydian over maj7 chords, just as long as there is no natural fourth being played at the same time.


EDIT: And the notes that would define the tonality would be the third and the seventh of the chord.
#8
Quote by confusius
Cmaj13: C E G B D F A

C ionian: C D E F G A B
C lydian: C D E F# G A B


Tis ionian. Lydian is used over maj7#11 chords. It is possible though to use lydian over maj7 chords, just as long as there is no natural fourth being played at the same time.


EDIT: And the notes that would define the tonality would be the third and the seventh of the chord.
13 chords dont have to include the 9th, 11th or even the 5th.

Cmaj13: C E G B A

And the notes that would define the tonality would be the third and the seventh of the chord
But thats just the thing, due to harmony norms and voice leading, just about every note in an extended chord will be a third or a seventh from another note thats not the tonic.
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#9
13 chords dont have to include the 9th, 11th or even the 5th.


Yes, I know, that was not my point.

But thats just the thing, due to harmony norms and voice leading, just about every note in an extended chord will be a third or a seventh from another note thats not the tonic.


It's not due to counterpoint norms, it's due to the fact that it's there. The norms are just telling you it's there. I don't see what you're trying to get at. A maj13 chord is 1 3 5 7 9 11 13, and the notes that define it's major quality, are the major third and the major seventh. If those notes changed, the chord would become a min13 or a 13 chord. If you change the other notes it becomes a major13b9 or #11 or any other variation you can come up with.

I don't think I'm really understanding what you're trying to say because I know you know what I've just told you.
#10
Quote by s-g man
well i guess i got ownd


Nah dude, get involved, contribute to these crazy mode threads that constantly spiral out of control!

Quote by Demon
Dunno it could be C ionian or lydian over a CMaj13? What would decide the tonality of the chord in this case? What the bass or something, or maybe the notes most used in the solo (like if an Am is arpeggiated its an Am and if the C is arpeggiated its C)?


I know what you're saying, it could depend on the chords that preceed it, bearing in mind that these may not be diatonic, and the fact that the Cmaj13 has the 13th as the root! Also the underlying harmony and melody will play a part.

In a much simpler scenario though, what with A being the root, the tonality is gonna sound like A Aeolian surely?
Last edited by mdc at Aug 4, 2008,
#11
What I was actually thinking was the bass line. Lets say the bass line underneath that chord outlines say Em pentatonic or something than the chord over the top is an Eminoraddsomething. Problem is, the A minor pentatonic contains the same notes as the C major pentatonic tonic.

I like your suggestion about the chord before hand. If the chord before and after that Am9 is say an G7 or a Bm7b5, wouldnt it be more likely that the "Am9" is more likely to be a Cmaj13? As G7 or Bm7b5 doesnt move well to Am (forgetting the ninth and seventh degrees for a moment), but moves great to Cmaj.

Maybe we're just being a little too pedantic or pragmatic=\?
Quote by confusius

I don't think I'm really understanding what you're trying to say because I know you know what I've just told you.
Actually I'm just looking for an interesting conversation .

If you look at the way a 9th or 11th or 13th chord is traditionally voiced, that is in thirds up a musical staff, the fourth, fifth and sixth will be seventh notes of another note and just about every note will be a third note from another note. The chord could be anyone of 2 sometimes 3 or 4 options. This than raises the question, what mode/scale do we play if we want to play the changes?
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Aug 4, 2008,
#12
Quote by demonofthenight

Maybe we're just being a little too pedantic or pragmatic=\?


Yes. Plus I don't have my geetar which is causing extreme pain...
#13
You're not being pragmatic at all.

So yeah, the factors that determine it will be the context and the bassline. A good bassist would play the roots if he were to be walking over the chords(in a jazz context, I wouldn't know about other types of music really).


If you were to be pragmatic, you'd use your ear and find what resolutions were the best and then apply it to the counterpoint "laws" rather than doing it the other way around.


confusEDIT:

If you look at the way a 9th or 11th or 13th chord is traditionally voiced, that is in thirds up a musical staff, the fourth, fifth and sixth will be seventh notes of another note and just about every note will be a third note from another note. The chord could be anyone of 2 sometimes 3 or 4 options. This than raises the question, what mode/scale do we play if we want to play the changes?



Well, the first thing is that you'll never find a piece where you need to improvise over at Cmaj13 chord with the chord written out on the staff because that would be a nightmare.

The second thing is that the context might help you. The Cmaj13 could be the fourth degree of G major in which case you would use lydian(trying to avoid the #4 seeing that we haven't mentioned it in the example). If you weren't in G it could be a tonic, in which case you use ionian. If it isn't a tonic and you can't work out what chord it is, then use common sense. Either STFU and don't play, or play the the chord tones and make a really simple line with it.


Though you won't be coming across a chord like that to improvise. I hope.
Last edited by confusius at Aug 4, 2008,