#1
Okay, I've been playing for just over a year now, I'm a very proficient player technique wise, I can play fast stuff, sweep proficiently, and I'm good with riffs.

BUT, I keep running into one major issue. I have no idea how to solo. I know some scales, I know the major scale, pentatonic major, minor, Harmonic minor, and like maybe two others I cant exactly remember at the moment, but I dont get how to use them in solos. I cant figure out how to use them.

Any help would be appreciated.

My things:
Bowes SLx7
Washburn WG587
Washburn X40Pro
Washburn X50
Washburn HM24
Washburn WR150
Laguna LE200s
Arietta Acoustic
First Act
Valveking 112
VHT Deliverance

#2
IMHO, don't learn scales. this seems to stop people from soloing. i can't tell you how many threads i see like this.
#3
Quote by jess2112
IMHO, don't learn scales. this seems to stop people from soloing. i can't tell you how many threads i see like this.


Ignore this, scales are important to soloing. Think of it as a guide instead of a limitation, it's ok to go outside the key ever now and then if it flows.

This might be useful.
www.video.google.com/videosearch?q=marty+friedman+melodic+control&sitesearch=
#5
Quote by jess2112
WHY?! so many people say they learn tons of scales and can't solo at all. i believe my theory is correct.

What about the many many more people who aren't complaining because they have learned their scales, practiced correctly, and can now solo proficiently?
"It is always advisable to be a loser if you cannot become a winner." - Frank Zappa

The name's Garrett.

Gear and stuff:
Taylor 310
American Strat w/ Texas Specials
Ibanez JS1000
Vox Wah (true bypass & LED mod)
Dr. Z Maz 18 JR NR
#6
Quote by jess2112
WHY?! so many people say they learn tons of scales and can't solo at all. i believe my theory is correct.


Those people have no sense of creativity. You think you can make a good solo by playing random notes? Good luck.
#7
Quote by Iron_Dude
What about the many many more people who aren't complaining because they have learned their scales, practiced correctly, and can now solo proficiently?


how would a scale actually help one solo? i'm not asking sarcastically, but if it's true that scales help one solo, then how WOULD they help?
#8
Quote by jess2112
how would a scale actually help one solo? i'm not asking sarcastically, but if it's true that scales help one solo, then how WOULD they help?

They give you a series of notes that sound good over a certain key. Simple enough?
"It is always advisable to be a loser if you cannot become a winner." - Frank Zappa

The name's Garrett.

Gear and stuff:
Taylor 310
American Strat w/ Texas Specials
Ibanez JS1000
Vox Wah (true bypass & LED mod)
Dr. Z Maz 18 JR NR
#9
Quote by jess2112
how would a scale actually help one solo? i'm not asking sarcastically, but if it's true that scales help one solo, then how WOULD they help?


Following a scale lets you stay in key. Arpeggios and chords come from scales.
#11
Quote by jess2112
so it would be impossible to solo well without knowing scales?


To make a solo sound melodic yes, you will need scales among other things.
#12
Quote by jess2112
so it would be impossible to solo well without knowing scales?

Not unless you wanted to sound like Kerry King. Otherwise, yes you would need to know scales.
"It is always advisable to be a loser if you cannot become a winner." - Frank Zappa

The name's Garrett.

Gear and stuff:
Taylor 310
American Strat w/ Texas Specials
Ibanez JS1000
Vox Wah (true bypass & LED mod)
Dr. Z Maz 18 JR NR
#13
Quote by Iron_Dude
Not unless you wanted to sound like Kerry King. Otherwise, yes you would need to know scales.


is there a thread for learning scales for beginners?
#14
Quote by jess2112
is there a thread for learning scales for beginners?


Why dont you go and search for it instead of jacking and spamming my thread


To the guy who posted the Melodic control vid, I've already watched it, and it didnt really make anything clearer

My things:
Bowes SLx7
Washburn WG587
Washburn X40Pro
Washburn X50
Washburn HM24
Washburn WR150
Laguna LE200s
Arietta Acoustic
First Act
Valveking 112
VHT Deliverance

#15
Quote by valennic
Why dont you go and search for it instead of jacking and spamming my thread


To the guy who posted the Melodic control vid, I've already watched it, and it didnt really make anything clearer


i expected an easy link to a great thread.
#17
Quote by valennic
Okay, I've been playing for just over a year now, I'm a very proficient player technique wise, I can play fast stuff, sweep proficiently, and I'm good with riffs.

BUT, I keep running into one major issue. I have no idea how to solo. I know some scales, I know the major scale, pentatonic major, minor, Harmonic minor, and like maybe two others I cant exactly remember at the moment, but I dont get how to use them in solos. I cant figure out how to use them.

Any help would be appreciated.


Dude I have the same damn problem

After watching that melodic control from Marty I still had the same prob. It improved a bit but still.

Then I got into phrasing. Still improved a little bit only, but meh.... still

Like when I play, I don't seem to be able to find a melody. I always stay in a corner playing onte , doing little riffs I know , little licks, phrasing, but I can't find something...

Even though I play with feeling and I don't try to shred much these days just be able to be melodic more but it looks like I just don't know what to do sometimes.

I don't know alot of songs, I only know one complete song and it's stairway to heaven from led zeppelin. But I improvise alot alot so I'm a pretty fast player and very accurate when I want.

I asked before in here and asked if I should learn more songs to get more vocabulary and more like riffs in my head and all.

I got answers, but no one told me like "YES , DO IT" . I got 2 good answers that helped and it was about phrasing and something else but still...

My teacher is on vacation right now so this friday ima bomb him of tons of flaming about this.
#18
well to valennic, i would ask, how long have you been playing. generally playing leadlines/melody is something that takes a long time to get good at and requires lots of practice. melodic control is simply a principle for playing around chord based movements. with a lot of practice you can use it for riffs.

and i personally think learning songs from the musicians you enjoy is always a good idea. i personally would sit down and analyze how things sounded and derived why they would sound this way (this was before i learned any real music theory) so i often did my own independent studies on music i enjoyed. i only ever really learned parts of 2 or 3 solos but having a decent ear and studying music the way that i did allowed me to connect the visualization and the aural aspects of lead work.

phrasing is a very important part of leads..... so KevC4, i'm not buying that you "got into phrasing but only helped a little" phrasing is how you say what you say. if you really study phrasing you can easily spend years on it. something tells me you probably didn't even spend a fraction of that time on it. i know personally i worked on mine hardcore for a couple of months and my playing improved by leaps and bounds.
Last edited by z4twenny at Aug 6, 2008,
#19
Quote by z4twenny
well to valennic, i would ask, how long have you been playing. generally playing leadlines/melody is something that takes a long time to get good at and requires lots of practice. melodic control is simply a principle for playing around chord based movements. with a lot of practice you can use it for riffs.

and i personally think learning songs from the musicians you enjoy is always a good idea. i personally would sit down and analyze how things sounded and derived why they would sound this way (this was before i learned any real music theory) so i often did my own independent studies on music i enjoyed. i only ever really learned parts of 2 or 3 solos but having a decent ear and studying music the way that i did allowed me to connect the visualization and the aural aspects of lead work.


Well, I've been playing for a bit over a year now, but the melodies and such arent quite the probelm. I can write a melody easily, its how the scale fits, and how to write a solo with that that I dont get.

That's how I do things, I look at the solos, learn a few of them, and then I just write stuff based off of remembering what fret on the fretboard makes that specific pitch. Like I said a bit earlier, it's applying the scales and such to things that I dont understand.

My things:
Bowes SLx7
Washburn WG587
Washburn X40Pro
Washburn X50
Washburn HM24
Washburn WR150
Laguna LE200s
Arietta Acoustic
First Act
Valveking 112
VHT Deliverance

#20
Quote by z4twenny
well to valennic, i would ask, how long have you been playing. generally playing leadlines/melody is something that takes a long time to get good at and requires lots of practice. melodic control is simply a principle for playing around chord based movements. with a lot of practice you can use it for riffs.

and i personally think learning songs from the musicians you enjoy is always a good idea. i personally would sit down and analyze how things sounded and derived why they would sound this way (this was before i learned any real music theory) so i often did my own independent studies on music i enjoyed. i only ever really learned parts of 2 or 3 solos but having a decent ear and studying music the way that i did allowed me to connect the visualization and the aural aspects of lead work.

phrasing is a very important part of leads..... so KevC4, i'm not buying that you "got into phrasing but only helped a little" phrasing is how you say what you say. if you really study phrasing you can easily spend years on it. something tells me you probably didn't even spend a fraction of that time on it. i know personally i worked on mine hardcore for a couple of months and my playing improved by leaps and bounds.


Oh sorry dude I meant phasing.

But interesting... but how I improve this? I have no idea ohw I could
#21
^ you improve phrasing by learning about it, practicing and applying it

same basic principles apply for scales valennic, learn a scale in its entirety and practice it, just running up and down a scale rarely sound very good (put sparsely in a solo it can sound good but if thats all that you do then it won't sound very good) if you have some recording equipment it can make practicing alot easier. i bought a 4 track tape recorder to practice with back when i was 17. i'd record a chord progression or a riff and take whatever notes the riff was in and play using those notes and the knowledge of what notes sound like in relationship to each other to make solos. it really is something that requires a bit of dedication and hard work to break out of a rut (alot of people hit the pentatonic rut because thats all they learn)
#22
Quote by z4twenny
^ you improve phrasing by learning about it, practicing and applying it

same basic principles apply for scales valennic, learn a scale in its entirety and practice it, just running up and down a scale rarely sound very good (put sparsely in a solo it can sound good but if thats all that you do then it won't sound very good) if you have some recording equipment it can make practicing alot easier. i bought a 4 track tape recorder to practice with back when i was 17. i'd record a chord progression or a riff and take whatever notes the riff was in and play using those notes and the knowledge of what notes sound like in relationship to each other to make solos. it really is something that requires a bit of dedication and hard work to break out of a rut (alot of people hit the pentatonic rut because thats all they learn)


Well I've been improvising for alot lol. For like 4-3 months. I've built my speed and accuracy and I have to say I have my personnal phrasing, but there's still missing something.

But should I still learn songs? Cause it's been 6 months that I play and I don't know any songs except stairway to heaven. Maybe it would increase my vocabulary

But I think that I should concentrate on creating phrasings cause I alwayst improvise and since I have my limits I don't discover huge things. Well when I started improvising I was discovering new things but for now I' m kinda blocked. Maybe I should focus on creating phrasings now.
#23
^ 3-4 months is nothing, thats not very long at all. i'd say yes, learn other peoples songs it never hurts. also i speak from personal experience when i say once i learned the minor scale (i had been playing a year already before i figured this out) i practiced improv for about a year before i could construct a passably simple solo. and in that year i would often practice/play for upwards of 5 hours a day.

using again myself as an example, i learned the minor scale by doing. i started out on metallica songs and sat down and learned a LOT of them (or what i could play from a lot of them) i started noticing alot of the same notes being used, then i started noticing groupings of notes being played together and realizing what sounded like what against what. i also recommend interval ear training, learning what intervals sound like against each other, it takes the guess work out of "how do i play what i hear in my head"

as for learning phrasing, i personally found it best to listen to others and how they phrase and try to copy it at first or at least steal some of the ideas and incorporate them into my own playing.

i repeat one last time, I THINK LEARNING OTHER PEOPLES SONGS IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO GO ABOUT LEARNING ALL THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF MUSIC. also looking at how they're written it can really get you to think about the nuances of dyanmics, phrasing, timbre, structure and all the little things that make a good song. you'll start noticing all the little details about a song once you learn how to play it.
Last edited by z4twenny at Aug 6, 2008,
#24
Quote by z4twenny
^ 3-4 months is nothing, thats not very long at all. i'd say yes, learn other peoples songs it never hurts. also i speak from personal experience when i say once i learned the minor scale (i had been playing a year already before i figured this out) i practiced improv for about a year before i could construct a passably simple solo. and in that year i would often practice/play for upwards of 5 hours a day.

using again myself as an example, i learned the minor scale by doing. i started out on metallica songs and sat down and learned a LOT of them (or what i could play from a lot of them) i started noticing alot of the same notes being used, then i started noticing groupings of notes being played together and realizing what sounded like what against what. i also recommend interval ear training, learning what intervals sound like against each other, it takes the guess work out of "how do i play what i hear in my head"


Mmmm well that sounds cool. Very cool.

I already know the major scale and the minor that comes with. The pentatonic too, the harmonic. But yea I think I should practice songs that maybe I want to sound like.

But hey thanks man
#25
Quote by z4twenny
i repeat one last time, I THINK LEARNING OTHER PEOPLES SONGS IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO GO ABOUT LEARNING ALL THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF MUSIC. also looking at how they're written it can really get you to think about the nuances of dyanmics, phrasing, timbre, structure and all the little things that make a good song. you'll start noticing all the little details about a song once you learn how to play it.


When you say learning don't you also mean analyzing? Learning a song and understanding how a song works are two different things.
#26
^ i think learning the song first is the most important. learning how to play it and sound like whoever it is you're playing. after you learn some songs you can start really analyzing them for different things. i recommend doing them seperately at first so it's not "too much" after awhile the 2 will become the same and you'll be analyzing songs as you learn them.

lets take a REAL simple example, the opening to nothing else matters, which is just the Low E, G,B, high E, b g over and over......

start by learning how to play it like the song is written. when you play it you want to play it with a relaxed sound and not hitting the strings real hard. thats learning by doing with dynamics. if you hit the strings harder you'll get a different sound out of it. once you learn to play it right you'll notice it has that swing feel to it, whys that? well you can start looking at it like "it's in 6/8 time, so that gives it that swing" well what else? "well its the notes E, G, B which is essentially an E minor chord" what about phrasing for this? well its a steady 8th note pattern played softly (as previously determined) and moves through the chord 1-3-5-1-5-3......

i could probably keep going on the analysis of this, especially when you relate it to the parts that come after it. but this is just a basic example and notice that its almost a paragraph on a 10 second section of a 5 minute long song.
Last edited by z4twenny at Aug 6, 2008,
#27
Underlying any good solo are 2 related things: intent and force of will.

That explains why most people who simply memorize a scale (which takes maybe
all of 1 day), can't figure out why they can't make it sound good by just randomly
hitting notes and/or "going up and down the scale". There's no intent involved,
because you don't yet have the skill to understand how the notes work (and
secondarily, you don't know how to find them on the fretboard fast enough without
a lot of thinking about it).

In order to understand the notes of a scale and how to find them quickly enough
there's 2 approaches: bottom-up and top-down.

Bottom-up is practicing the scale in all positions and doing lots of scale studies.
This will give you general fretboard knowledge, ear-training, work your fingers in
a variety of ways, and give you building blocks of musical statements.

Top-down starts with the music -- like learning the tab to a solo from a song -- and
then breaks it down into how it relates to the scale and which building blocks
were used to create the music.

The first way is synthesis -- you have the building blocks and synthesize music from
assembling them; the second way is analysis -- you take the already complete
music and break it down into its component parts to analyse.


Practice lots of both of these methods. Probably at the start you'll need to do mostly
analysis until eventually you're almost all synthesis. Practice improvising based on
what you learn from them. Eventually, things will come togther, but it doesn't
happen overnight.
#28
Quote by valennic
Okay, I've been playing for just over a year now, I'm a very proficient player technique wise, I can play fast stuff, sweep proficiently, and I'm good with riffs.

BUT, I keep running into one major issue. I have no idea how to solo. I know some scales, I know the major scale, pentatonic major, minor, Harmonic minor, and like maybe two others I cant exactly remember at the moment, but I dont get how to use them in solos. I cant figure out how to use them.

Any help would be appreciated.



Focus less on superficial aspects of playing to impress people (like sweeps and "fast stuff")

Focus more on music.

learn some solos if thats what you want to be good at:

learn, memorize and be able to play them as close to the original as possible.

learn music ........ any music ! Beethoven, Slash, Mozart, Fall out boy (hehe)..... whatever. Just focus on music, not superficial aspects of guitar playing (sweeps, fast playing....ect) that you can claim to be proficient at to impress people like you would with Xbox achievements.


When you ready for it......study music. Learn to understand what you are hearing.


all of this stuff takes time.

Keep practicing, keep listening.............. start making music.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 6, 2008,
#29
Quote by z4twenny
^ 3-4 months is nothing, thats not very long at all. i'd say yes, learn other peoples songs it never hurts. also i speak from personal experience when i say once i learned the minor scale (i had been playing a year already before i figured this out) i practiced improv for about a year before i could construct a passably simple solo. and in that year i would often practice/play for upwards of 5 hours a day.

using again myself as an example, i learned the minor scale by doing. i started out on metallica songs and sat down and learned a LOT of them (or what i could play from a lot of them) i started noticing alot of the same notes being used, then i started noticing groupings of notes being played together and realizing what sounded like what against what. i also recommend interval ear training, learning what intervals sound like against each other, it takes the guess work out of "how do i play what i hear in my head"

as for learning phrasing, i personally found it best to listen to others and how they phrase and try to copy it at first or at least steal some of the ideas and incorporate them into my own playing.

i repeat one last time, I THINK LEARNING OTHER PEOPLES SONGS IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO GO ABOUT LEARNING ALL THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF MUSIC. also looking at how they're written it can really get you to think about the nuances of dyanmics, phrasing, timbre, structure and all the little things that make a good song. you'll start noticing all the little details about a song once you learn how to play it.
+14. All great advice. Ear training is one of the most overlooked things by a lot of players and learning and understanding other music will broaden your harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic vocabulary.
#30
Most of the solos in commercial music have been fathered by the
Pentatonic and Blues scale. In my opinion these two scales are a
standard for commercial music.

I would call them standard because most players that choose to
solo outside of these scales in the majority of their musical peices
are usually put into a creative or innovative category.

Jimi Hendrix, Tony Iommi and David Gilmour have very famous solos
and licks (Wish you were here) that are textbook pentatonic runs.

No matter what scale you choose...If you jam around with it long enough
a lick or solo will present itself to you. Some days I can write 3 songs..
on others..i cant seem to string together 5 notes that sound good. I enjoy
the good days..and on those bad days I practice anyway and just play
through it, as painful as it may be..

I started out drawing before i played guitar. I drew for over 4 years before
I drew a superhero worthy of hanging up on my wall. The night I drew him
I had no idea that i even had it in me.

I kept this in mind when i started playing guitar and thats how i kept my
frustrations into perspective.

Learn some scales. The scales are really good because you get to associate
notes with sound of different intervals going up and down. In time you will
be able to play a note anywhere on the guitar and know how its going to
sound if you move horizontally up two frets..or diagonally two frets down
and to the left. They will also help you with your speed...but if anything do
it for your coordination and ear training.

You dont need a scale based solo at all to sound good.

Here is a fun experiment I found. Hum and make up a riff. Now just hum and
make up 5 riffs. If you take out a tuner and figure out every riff...They usually
are scale based. You may not even realise that you are using them.
I bet Charlie Brown's teacher's name was Mrs.Hammett