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#1
If a song is in A minor can you solo over it using C major and all of the modes of the C major scale and vice versa?
#3
Well the modes of the C major scale are also the modes of the A minor scale.

BUT, if you have a chord prog in A min, you can't solo in C Major (Ionian). You will be soloing in A Minor.

Just so you know.
#5
Quote by Unreal T
If a song is in A minor can you solo over it using C major and all of the modes of the C major scale and vice versa?


Using the C major and its modes are fine, as long as you stay in an A minor progressionl.
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#6
Ok. Now I am kind of a noob to modes. Basically is this all there is to modes? (Don't laugh).

Lets say you are in C major. Basically is all you do is just start on different tones within the C major scale . Like starting on the D note would be D dorian minor and starting on the E phrygian minor. What is so hard about that?
#7
Quote by Unreal T
Ok. Now I am kind of a noob to modes. Basically is this all there is to modes? (Don't laugh).

Lets say you are in C major. Basically is all you do is just start on different tones within the C major scale . Like starting on the D note would be D dorian minor and starting on the E phrygian minor. What is so hard about that?


Well, it gets more complicated as you look across one note's modes, like C Ionian, C Dorian, and so forth. Then there must be alterations made to the chords you play to get the right sound from the scale.

Modes are very tricky if you are going to be modulating alot.
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#8
Quote by Unreal T
If a song is in A minor can you solo over it using C major and all of the modes of the C major scale and vice versa?


Yes and no. You can think in any of the modes---by that I mean that you can use any of the modal shapes for the ones that fit in A minor, and try to use notes/patterns/licks that are derived from a certain mode. However, if the progression you are playing over is in A minor, whatever mode you use to solo in will still sound like, and BE A minor.
#9
Quote by TheShred201
Yes and no. You can think in any of the modes---by that I mean that you can use any of the modal shapes for the ones that fit in A minor, and try to use notes/patterns/licks that are derived from a certain mode. However, if the progression you are playing over is in A minor, whatever mode you use to solo in will still sound like, and BE A minor.


What he said. Look at each of the modes of the C Major Scale. They're the same notes, just starting differently, so, technically, you're playing all of them when you play C Major or A Minor.
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#10
That's not what I said. At any given time, you AREN'T playing in Lydian AND it's relative Mixolydian. Since they have the same notes, mentally, you can think in one and use it to improvise. However, if you are playing over a lydian progression, you will simply be playing in Lydian, not something mixolydian, or something else, whether you are thinking in mixolydian, or locrian, or whatever you want.
#11
Quote by TheShred201
That's not what I said. At any given time, you AREN'T playing in Lydian AND it's relative Mixolydian. Since they have the same notes, mentally, you can think in one and use it to improvise. However, if you are playing over a lydian progression, you will simply be playing in Lydian, not something mixolydian, or something else, whether you are thinking in mixolydian, or locrian, or whatever you want.


Oh gee, sorry to misstate you.
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#12
basically if I was soloing over an A minor chord progression my choices of modes are
C Major
D Dorian Minor
E Phrygian Minor
F Lydian Major
G Mixolydian
A Natural Minor

I am just wondering if there are specific modes as listed above that you are RESTRICED to use over specific chords of the A minor progressions

u music geeks r confusin me lol
#13
and B Locrian if you want to think if it that way.
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#14
Even if you play the notes going from B to B or F to F right in a row, you aren't playing B Locrian or F Lydian. Feel free, however, to choose whichever "position" feels most comfortable or easy to use. Just know that you're not actually playing the mode. Remember, the tonality is defined by the general harmony, not what you play on top.
#16
Hey UnrealT, metal4all asked me to tell you to check your private messages, he's banned at the moment but wants to help out
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#17
Quote by quinny1089
(to TS a few posts up)

NO NO NO NO!!
there's so much misinformation in this thread its ridiculous.

If you have an A minor progression, and over it you solo using the notes, C D E F G A B C (in any order) - yes these notes are the same notes that are in C ionian, D dorian, E phrigian etc BUT - you will always be playing in A minor.

Check out the FAQ thread on modes, and if there's anything you don't understand, ask about that specific point.


^This

The mode is defined by the underlying harmony. The order of the notes is irrelevant. I strongly suggest ignoring modes until you have a firm grasp on the theory behind the major scale.
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#18
Quote by Unreal T
basically if I was soloing over an A minor chord progression my choices of modes are
C Major
D Dorian Minor
E Phrygian Minor
F Lydian Major
G Mixolydian
A Natural Minor

I am just wondering if there are specific modes as listed above that you are RESTRICED to use over specific chords of the A minor progressions

u music geeks r confusin me lol


Quote by Amalgam
and B Locrian if you want to think if it that way.

No to both, and here's why.

Over the progression in A minor, your tonal center is the note A. This is why you can't use the C major scale; a scale is defined by its intervals from a given tonal center, and since C major and A minor contain the same notes, they're only going to be defined as A minor because you have no tonal center of C to suggest otherwise. Thus, you're playing A minor over an A minor progression, not C major.

Same with modes; all modes are defined by their intervals. If you could use all those modes over the same Am progression, then modes wouldn't need to exist; they'd all sound the same. You need a harmonic context that indicates a specific mode, so unfortunately you can't just switch between modes over that Am progression; it's all going to sound like A minor because that's what the harmony suggests. You're still playing a minor scale and your tonal center is A, so therefore you can't use modal interchange in the way you guys described.

Any help?
#19
Technically, yes, the Cmaj and Amin scales are in the same key if that is what you want to know. They are relative. However no, the modes are not the same and the roots are different.

Technically, I don't think you get modes from the minor scale anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
#20
Quote by The.new.guy
Technically, yes, they are in the same key if that is what you want to know. However no, the modes are not the same and the roots are different.

Technically, I don't think you get modes from the minor scale anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The modes of the natural minor scale are the same as the major scale modes, just occurring in a different order.
#21
OK everyone is taking this WAAAY to intensely.
think about it, if someone is hearing you play they arent gonna say "WAIT IS THAT THE A MINOR SCALE OR THE C MAJOR SCALE???WTF???"
i eman come on guys, I LOVE MUSIC THEORY, but this is just a pointless arguement.
YES, a minor IS the same as C major, just with different names, BUT its not the names that matter, its the sounds!!!!


EDIT: i forgot to add one thing: ....DUH.....
lol jk
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#22
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
OK everyone is taking this WAAAY to intensely.
think about it, if someone is hearing you play they arent gonna say "WAIT IS THAT THE A MINOR SCALE OR THE C MAJOR SCALE???WTF???"
i eman come on guys, I LOVE MUSIC THEORY, but this is just a pointless arguement.
YES, a minor IS the same as C major, just with different names, BUT its not the names that matter, its the sounds!!!!
The sounds are different.
#23
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
OK everyone is taking this WAAAY to intensely.
think about it, if someone is hearing you play they arent gonna say "WAIT IS THAT THE A MINOR SCALE OR THE C MAJOR SCALE???WTF???"
i eman come on guys, I LOVE MUSIC THEORY, but this is just a pointless arguement.
YES, a minor IS the same as C major, just with different names, BUT its not the names that matter, its the sounds!!!!


EDIT: i forgot to add one thing: ....DUH.....
lol jk

Of course they're going to be able to tell A minor from C major. They sound entirely different; it's not an argument, firstly, and more importantly it's not pointless. They are NOT the same at all, so don't say so.
#25
Quote by grampastumpy
The sounds are different.

are you trying to tell me the A minor scale sounds different than the C major scale.
YES it does, IF your playing the scale in order note to note. but if your soloing over it it will sound the same.
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#26
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
are you trying to tell me the A minor scale sounds different than the C major scale.
YES it does, IF your playing the scale in order note to note. but if your soloing over it it will sound the same.

Oh God.

The A minor scale comes into play in an A minor harmonic context, and the C major scale goes over C major harmony. That's why they sound different.
#27
Quote by :-D
Of course they're going to be able to tell A minor from C major. They sound entirely different; it's not an argument, firstly, and more importantly it's not pointless. They are NOT the same at all, so don't say so.

ok whatever.
where i live its like 1 in the morning so im done with this thread.
flame me all you want, call me an idiot all you want.
but you have to admit, the notes in the A minor scale are the same as the notes in the C major scale (in different orders obviously).
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#28
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
are you trying to tell me the A minor scale sounds different than the C major scale.
YES it does, IF your playing the scale in order note to note. but if your soloing over it it will sound the same.
Californication by the Red Hot Chili Peppers is in A Minor(the intro, anyway). Dammit by Blink-182 is in C Major. For soloing over either you could think "A Minor pentatonic scale" but in reality, one is in A Minor and the other in C major.
#29
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
but you have to admit, the notes in the A minor scale are the same as the notes in the C major scale (in different orders obviously).

Yes, that's true. It's also completely unnecessary to say, because nobody was arguing this point with you.
#30
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
are you trying to tell me the A minor scale sounds different than the C major scale.
YES it does, IF your playing the scale in order note to note. but if your soloing over it it will sound the same.




Hooray, I finally get to use the facepalm smiley.

No they won't sound the same. You could even take the SAME MELODY, put it over a different chord progression, and it will sound different/create a different mood.
#31
Quote by quinny1089
(to TS a few posts up)

NO NO NO NO!!
there's so much misinformation in this thread its ridiculous.

If you have an A minor progression, and over it you solo using the notes, C D E F G A B C (in any order) - yes these notes are the same notes that are in C ionian, D dorian, E phrigian etc BUT - you will always be playing in A minor.

Check out the FAQ thread on modes, and if there's anything you don't understand, ask about that specific point.

this guy said exactly what i was trying to say
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#33
Quote by :-D
And also said exactly the opposite of what you actually said.

ok whatever
i admit i was wrong (just to make you guys get off my case) even though i have no idea what i said/did wrong.
happy now?
lol im gonna go sleep now im friggin tired
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
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#34
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
ok whatever
i admit i was wrong (just to make you guys get off my case) even though i have no idea what i said/did wrong.
happy now?
lol im gonna go sleep now im friggin tired
We're not angry and we didn't flame you. If you happen to come back to this thread, we will explain the difference if you don't believe there is one.
#35
Not sure if this has been said before, but the Minor and relative major scales might be written the same, but in practise they are completely different.

In minor progressions you use different chords. Like I barely ever see a v chord but always see V7 chords. And viio chords would normally be used in place of a bVII chord.

The minor melodies are also alot different. Like the sixth degree should be natural or flat, depending on the situation and the seventh degree is the same, depending on situation.

And, the most important difference, to use the minor scale you must resolve on the right note, or else your song will want to resolve on the note that would mean major (which isnt that bad).
        ,
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[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#36
ok im back.
i thought i knew a little bit about theory, seeing as ive only taken lessons for a while but i knew more than more kids in the music theory class in my school. (no i didnt take music theory as a class, i tried but they wouldnt let me).
but apparently, i have alot to learn lol.
yes, i would like someone to explain to me why it is SOOOO important that you identify which key the song is in, like C major or A minor. (you know what i mean)
basically, what this thread is about lol.
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
#37
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
ok im back.
i thought i knew a little bit about theory, seeing as ive only taken lessons for a while but i knew more than more kids in the music theory class in my school. (no i didnt take music theory as a class, i tried but they wouldnt let me).
but apparently, i have alot to learn lol.
yes, i would like someone to explain to me why it is SOOOO important that you identify which key the song is in, like C major or A minor. (you know what i mean)
basically, what this thread is about lol.
It's the same as making the distinction between C Major and D Dorian. For instance, Am E7 over and over again is quite obviously not C Major, since it very clearly resolves to A.
#38
Quote by grampastumpy
It's the same as making the distinction between C Major and D Dorian. For instance, Am E7 over and over again is quite obviously not C Major, since it very clearly resolves to A.

so basically, whatever it resolves to is what key its in?
like if its in the key of C and it resolves to a E minor chord its it the E mode (dont know the name of the third mode).
so that would be in the E mode? and not the key of C?

EDIT: i realize what i jsut said is really confusing.
basically say you have a chord progression: "Em G7 Dm Am"
that ISNT in the key of C?? its in the third mode of the key of C? (if i knew the f***ing name of the third mode it would make this so much easier lol)
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
Ibanez Acoustic
Last edited by musicTHEORYnerd at Aug 7, 2008,
#39
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
so basically, whatever it resolves to is what key its in?
like if its in the key of C and it resolves to a E minor chord its it the E mode (dont know the name of the third mode).
so that would be in the E mode? and not the key of C?
Exactly, although in your first sentence you say key. Later on you go on to correct yourself though so you have the concept right. It's Phrygian by the way.
#40
Quote by grampastumpy
Exactly, although in your first sentence you say key. Later on you go on to correct yourself though so you have the concept right. It's Phrygian by the way.

ok.
that actually makes it alot simpler.
cause i could never tell the difference between the key of C and the key of A minor.
so its in the key of whatever it resolves to right?
my 6 best friends:
Ibanez Artcore AF75
Schecter C-1 Hellraiser
LTD H-207 7 string
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