#1
i heard that they're just 'displaced' major scales. so, if we're in the key of C Major (Ionian: C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C) this is the same as D Dorian (D,E,F,G,A,B,C)?
#2
yeah pretty much, it comes in handy thouugh when your playing in something like key of e, then you can solo in like e dorian creating some cool sounding solos
#3
technically, yes thats somewhat true. the notes of C maj are the same as D dorian. "displaced" major scales is an easy way to understand modes.

However, the way they are applied over progressions and such, makes them entirely different from each other. To understand using modes, i would suggest something like learning each mode all in C (C maj, dorian, phrygian, etc...) and their shapes. Playing Cmaj starting on D doesnt make it D dorian


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#4
Quote by guitaringnathan
yeah pretty much, it comes in handy thouugh when your playing in something like key of e, then you can solo in like e dorian creating some cool sounding solos


If you solo over a major chord progression with a minor mode, that's not gonna sound good. But if you would want like modes from E you would just simply think it like this in the key of E

E ionian
F# dorian
G# phryrigian
A lydian
B mixolydian
C# aeolian
D# locrian

So in the key of e you could change your solo tonalty to F# dorian mode, but it won't make a really big difference atleast to my ear if you just use a E-major in many different things, unless you kinda make a running lick where you just go up with the scale.

Quote by chipmunksurfer
Playing Cmaj starting on D doesnt make it D dorian


Yes it basicly does, it will sound exactly the same but is just theoritically being writed differently.

Cmaj 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B
Dmaj 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D E F#G A B C#
D-dorian 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b
D E F G B C

Even the chord progressions come in the same hand like C major is Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin Blocrian and in D-dorian Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Blocrian, Cmaj.
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Last edited by Punkismygod at Aug 9, 2008,
#5
Quote by Punkismygod

Even the chord progressions come in the same hand like C major is Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin Blocrian and in D-dorian Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Blocrian, Cmaj.


AKA B diminished, correct?
#6
Quote by Punkismygod

Yes it basicly does, it will sound exactly the same but is just theoritically being writed differently.


you can start a run in Cmaj on D and it is not D dorian. A progression or something where D is the root will make it in D dorian

edit: ^yes, B diminished is the chord. Locrian is the mode. I dont think you can call it B locrian


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#7
Quote by rockadoodle
AKA B diminished, correct?

The diminished scale is different from Locrian. There are two diminished scales - half-whole, built from a series of half steps followed by whole steps, and whole-half, built from a series of whole steps followed by half steps.
#8
Quote by Punkismygod
Yes it basicly does, it will sound exactly the same but is just theoritically being writed differently.

No, it doesn't. Keep in mind that modes are unique because of their intervallic construction; in order to have intervals, however, you need a tonal center. Therefore, your tonal center defines your scale. So, if you're playing over a static C major chord for example and you begin a run on D, it's still C major. Because there's nothing to support a D Dorian tonality, you can't call it "basically" D Dorian.
#9
Quote by kirbyrocknroll
The diminished scale is different from Locrian. There are two diminished scales - half-whole, built from a series of half steps followed by whole steps, and whole-half, built from a series of whole steps followed by half steps.


exactly but doesn't exactly explain what he/she was "aka"ing. They are separate and there is no B locrian chord. B diminished is the chord, B locrian is the mode. diminished scales are as kirbyrocknroll says


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#10
Quote by chipmunksurfer
exactly but doesn't exactly explain what he/she was "aka"ing. They are separate and there is no B locrian chord. B diminished is the chord, B locrian is the mode. diminished scales are as kirbyrocknroll says

Though there is no "Locrian chord" per se, the characteristic chord of the Locrian mode is a half-diminished seventh chord (m7b5).
#11
Quote by Punkismygod
it will sound exactly the same but is just theoritically being writed differently.

Cmaj 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B
Dmaj 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D E F#G A B C#
D-dorian 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b
D E F G B C

Even the chord progressions come in the same hand like C major is Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin Blocrian and in D-dorian Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Blocrian, Cmaj.
No. Look at your intervals.
C maj = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Yeah they use the same notes but that's where the similarity ends. They use different roots and different intervals and consequently sound completely different.

When all the other notes and chords are related back to a D root they sound different than when they are related back to a C root.

I like chipmunkster's first post. In order to understand the difference between modes look at parallel modes not relative modes.
Si
#12
It doesn't sound the same. You have to approach modes just like you would the major scale, emphasis on the arpeggio notes to keep it from falling back into the parent scale. I've learned this over time, just think of them as different scales, and don't relate them to the parent scales.

This is what I recommend, other people will dissagree.
#13
Quote by :-D
Though there is no "Locrian chord" per se, the characteristic chord of the Locrian mode is a half-diminished seventh chord (m7b5).


...well yes? thats what i said/meant? was there something wrong with the way i explained it? maybe i didn't make it so clear.


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#14
Quote by chipmunksurfer
...well yes? thats what i said/meant? was there something wrong with the way i explained it? maybe i didn't make it so clear.

Nothing wrong with how you said it, the tonic triad is diminished; I wasn't arguing but rather elaborating.
#15
we should have a sticky specifically for modes. the same question get asked all the time and only occasionally someone fully explains it because they're tired of answering the same questions all the time.
#16
There's an excellent modes lesson, here on UG. Helped me a lot when I was learning modes. But I agree for a sticky, we could all contribute various videos that explain modes: Satriani, Vinnie Moore, etc.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/the_basics/modes_ii.html
#17
instead of a sticky, simply searchbar, and all the lessons on theory and modes answer these questions. people need to learn to look before wasting people's time...


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#18
But most of the people asking about modes obviously don't visit MT very much or they would know how often it is talked about. And there are so many people giving that don't understand it trying to help and are giving wrong information somebody who doesn't know (which is why they're asking) wouldn't know what's right and what isn't.
#19
Quote by iluvpickles
i heard that they're just 'displaced' major scales.


Yes. However, it's important to realise that even though C Ionian and D Dorian have the same notes, this is also where their relationship ends.

Quote by =iluvpickles
so, if we're in the key of C Major (Ionian: C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C) this is the same as D Dorian (D,E,F,G,A,B,C)?


It's not the same - the notes are yes (mentioned above), but, when in D Dorian, the tonic has now shifted to D.
#20
Quote by punkismygod
If you solo over a major chord progression with a minor mode, that's not gonna sound good.
I disagree. I like the sound of minor pentatonics and dorian modes over dominant chords. I havent found any minor scales that work over major or major7th chords or any major scales that work over minor chords, though.

Sorry, everything usefull about modes has already been said.
#21
Lol thanks for correcting my post, I was bit drunk when i wrote that yeasterday.
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#23
Quote by ouchies
Not true, mixolydian chord progression w/ minor pentatonic


I wouldn't call it the minor pentatonic, since, over a dominant chord, that b3 is far better described as a #9.
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#25
Quote by ouchies
So what would you call it then?


Altered.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#27
The D Dorian SCALE can be said to be a "shifted" C Major scale. However, playing a C Major scale over a droning D bass note will be D Dorian, and playing a D Dorian scale over a droning C bass note will be C Major. Since the notes are the same, the importance is in emphasizing the different roots(when you're thinking about modes in relation to their parent scales, that is).
#28
Quote by kirbyrocknroll
The diminished scale is different from Locrian. There are two diminished scales - half-whole, built from a series of half steps followed by whole steps, and whole-half, built from a series of whole steps followed by half steps.

so technically there is 3 diminished scales?
locrian, half whole, and whole half?
tell me if im wrong
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#29
Quote by musicTHEORYnerd
so technically there is 3 diminished scales?
locrian, half whole, and whole half?
tell me if im wrong
Locrian is considered diminished in nature but it's not considered one of the diminished scales generally. Though diminished describes it better than major or minor which are used to describe the other modes.
#30
Quote by grampastumpy
Locrian is considered diminished in nature but it's not considered one of the diminished scales generally. Though diminished describes it better than major or minor which are used to describe the other modes.

=] thanks
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#32
Quote by ouchies
Wouldn't it just be easier to call it minor pentatonic?
I've always thought of it as an altered mode with a few notes missing and a perfect fifth. Minor pentatonics sort of suggest to chord underneath is a minor chord, which it isnt.
Quote by ouchies
...Of course it would. Most normal guitarists wouldn't even know the difference between a #9 and a b3. And it doesn't really make that much of a difference while you're playing anyway. Actually it doesn't at all.
Truth be told, I'd agree with you. Most guitarists (stuff that, most musicians) wouldnt know the difference between a m3 and a #2, but than again most musicians are very well versed in theory.
They would think it sounds the same, but trust me it doesnt. The interval that is 3 semitones sounds dissonant (in a good way) over dominant chords and consonant over minor chords. Also, m3 sort of means its used as a chord tone in a triad. So wouldnt it be best to call the same interval that is 3 semitones different names for its function and its sound?
#33
Quote by demonofthenight
I've always thought of it as an altered mode with a few notes missing and a perfect fifth. Minor pentatonics sort of suggest to chord underneath is a minor chord, which it isnt.Truth be told, I'd agree with you. Most guitarists (stuff that, most musicians) wouldnt know the difference between a m3 and a #2, but than again most musicians are very well versed in theory.
They would think it sounds the same, but trust me it doesnt. The interval that is 3 semitones sounds dissonant (in a good way) over dominant chords and consonant over minor chords. Also, m3 sort of means its used as a chord tone in a triad. So wouldnt it be best to call the same interval that is 3 semitones different names for its function and its sound?


I suppose if you wanted to get really technical. But MOST guitarists, even if they are very well versed in theory will think of it as the minor pentatonic. I just came back from a camp and my teacher was the jazz teacher at University of North Florida and he said using the minor pentatonic over a dominant chord is fine.

.. It was the most advanced class offered too.

So you are technically right, but honestly, what difference does it make?