#1
If I play an open E and then play the 12th fret E it is about 10 cents difference, how much should it be?
#2
the open E and the 12th fret should be almost exactly the same
it seems you have an intonation problem
check this out http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/intonate.htm
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#4
Depents.
If it is an electric, you can easily adjust it to make for perfect or near perfect intonation and there is no reason why you shouldn't.
If it is an acoustic, the procedure is more cumbersome. If it really annoys you and hinders your playing, go see the guitar doctor. If it is fine for you, but you see people putting on sour faces and covering their ears while dogs begin to hawl, have it looked at also. But if it is only your chromatic tuner objecting, don't bother; it's not worth the trouble.
#5
Quote by Marcel Veltman
Depents.
If it is an electric, you can easily adjust it to make for perfect or near perfect intonation and there is no reason why you shouldn't.
If it is an acoustic, the procedure is more cumbersome. If it really annoys you and hinders your playing, go see the guitar doctor. If it is fine for you, but you see people putting on sour faces and covering their ears while dogs begin to hawl, have it looked at also. But if it is only your chromatic tuner objecting, don't bother; it's not worth the trouble.


No-one complains, dogs or humans except a studio engineer, thats why i checked it.
#6
truss rod adjustment maybe?
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#7
Quote by highlordmugfug
truss rod adjustment maybe?



Maybe I'm uneducated on the subject, but I don't see how the adjusting the truss rod would have any major effect if any on the intonation of the guitar
#8
Quote by rockinelectro
If I play an open E and then play the 12th fret E it is about 10 cents difference, how much should it be?


It should be the same note, no cents difference. It will be one octave apart though. This by the way IS the correct way to check intonation, by comparing the open string note to the fretted 12th of the same string. Good job on that.
If the guitar has individually adjustable saddles(such as is found on a Strat or Tune-O-Matic bridge) then you can dial in the intonation and action dead on.
If it's a fixed bridge/saddle such as on an acoustic, it becomes much more problematic since there's really nothing to adjust, but rather the saddle needs to be modified by filing/sanding to bring it in line. Quality made acoustics should already have a compensated saddle and be good to go for the lifetime of the guitar, barring normal wear and tear on it that may require saddle replacement.
#12
Ok, just making sure it wasn't a floyd rose. That would tend to complicate things a bit.
Did you try the screw on the back side of the bridge that moves the saddle either closer to or farther from the neck? That is the intonation adjusting point for that type of bridge. If by chance you were only adjusting the small allen head set screws on the front edge of the saddle, your intonation wouldn't be effected much. Action yes, intonation no.
Also, have you tried new batteries in your tuner? I don't know that it would make it error that much, but electronics can be weird sometimes.
#13
Quote by LeftyDave
Ok, just making sure it wasn't a floyd rose. That would tend to complicate things a bit.
Did you try the screw on the back side of the bridge that moves the saddle either closer to or farther from the neck? That is the intonation adjusting point for that type of bridge. If by chance you were only adjusting the small allen head set screws on the front edge of the saddle, your intonation wouldn't be effected much. Action yes, intonation no.
Also, have you tried new batteries in your tuner? I don't know that it would make it error that much, but electronics can be weird sometimes.



Yeah, I used a software tuner and two normal ones and they all say the same. Most strings were OK, but low E is out by twenty cents on just about every position. I withdrew the saddle as far as it will go with no change whatsoever.
#14
Try this. Replace just the low E string. You can buy individuals at most guitar stores. Make sure it's a decent match for the guitar. It needs to fit in the nut slot without binding or be so loose and sloppy that it can roll from side to side in the slot.
Maybe a .046" or .048". Pretty common gauge for electric low E.
Get it strung up and make sure you do a good job of it at the tuning post. Stretch it out and retune as needed until it's stable. Doesn't matter just yet if intonation is off or not.
Reposition the bridge saddle for the low E to about the mid point of it's travel on the screw.
Retune low E to dead on open. Test the 12th fret for intonation. If sharper than open, move saddle back away from neck, if flat, move it closer.
It's a bit time consuming, but is the cheapest route to take at the moment.
#15
Quote by LeftyDave
Try this. Replace just the low E string. You can buy individuals at most guitar stores. Make sure it's a decent match for the guitar. It needs to fit in the nut slot without binding or be so loose and sloppy that it can roll from side to side in the slot.
Maybe a .046" or .048". Pretty common gauge for electric low E.
Get it strung up and make sure you do a good job of it at the tuning post. Stretch it out and retune as needed until it's stable. Doesn't matter just yet if intonation is off or not.
Reposition the bridge saddle for the low E to about the mid point of it's travel on the screw.
Retune low E to dead on open. Test the 12th fret for intonation. If sharper than open, move saddle back away from neck, if flat, move it closer.
It's a bit time consuming, but is the cheapest route to take at the moment.


WOW! That worked, you get an award for 'coolness'. However, F to G is still well out!!! Whats the deal?
#16
it's just the way it is on that, the Buzz feiten tuning system or the Earvana nut is required to fix that. they're compensated for that.
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#17
Is it a real Fender Strat or a clone? If it's a clone, some of the cheaper models can have misplaced nuts and/or poor fret positioning on them. You might be able to get the open/12th intonation spot on, but when you start fretting notes up the neck, it's off everywhere else. The Buzz Feinten tuning system is said to resolve the issue with messed up nut placements, but as for the frets themselves, there's no substitute for quality.
In your case, you may have to settle for a happy medium to get it to sound ok. Pay close attention to which way the notes are off versus the note they should be at any given fret. In otherwords, if the note should be a G played on the low E string at the 3rd fret, but it plays sharp there, then tweak the bridge saddle back a half turn or so. You might mess up the 12th fret intonation a little, but at least the majority of the neck will be closer. Remember to keep retuning the open E after each saddle adjustment.
#18
Quote by LeftyDave
Is it a real Fender Strat or a clone? If it's a clone, some of the cheaper models can have misplaced nuts and/or poor fret positioning on them. You might be able to get the open/12th intonation spot on, but when you start fretting notes up the neck, it's off everywhere else. The Buzz Feinten tuning system is said to resolve the issue with messed up nut placements, but as for the frets themselves, there's no substitute for quality.
In your case, you may have to settle for a happy medium to get it to sound ok. Pay close attention to which way the notes are off versus the note they should be at any given fret. In otherwords, if the note should be a G played on the low E string at the 3rd fret, but it plays sharp there, then tweak the bridge saddle back a half turn or so. You might mess up the 12th fret intonation a little, but at least the majority of the neck will be closer. Remember to keep retuning the open E after each saddle adjustment.


It's a Burns Marquee. So, do some guitars have perfect intonation, if so, which ones?
#19
I wish there was a guitar that had "perfect intonation"! If I could make one, I'd be a rich rich man. That, my friend, is THE Holy Grail of all guitaring, to acheive perfect intonation so that each and every note plays pure tones. If the note is supposed to be an F#, then it is truely an F#, not an F# plus or minus a few cents. The better quality the guitar, the closer it comes to this, but none can ever get there. It's the strings you see. They bend. One guy may press a little harder than the next guy, which will deliver a slightly different note.
The modern day guitar has what's called "equal temperament". All this fancy term means is that the frets are spaced such that the guitar approximates, to the best of it's ability, pure tones at all positions along the fretboard. Here's a link to a site that supposedly overcomes the inherent flaw of the equal tempered instrument. Check out the whacko frets and you'll see what it could take to acheive perfection.

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=36

So, back to your original question, which guitars. If you want a strat style, get a Fender. It's going to be a whole hell of a lot more accurate than any of the low end clones are. I myself own a cheapo Austin strat clone. It's got the same problem as yours. I never play it either, but keep it in C# tuning for when I want to crank out some Sabbath. For everything else, I play my Gibson SG. The SG's intonation is really nice by the way.
#20
These Burnses, a bit oddball as they might be, usually are pretty well build. Unless someone with lesser qualifications modified it at some point, it should have it's bridge in the right position.

Like Lefty said (who is always right so he can keep up his reputation as The Threadkiller. My respons here is only to keep him from posting the last one once more) perfect intonation is an unachievable goal, unless you come up with some Unwieldy Solution to an Unsignificant Problem like mr. Thidell did from Lefty's link. It only proves that a) ingenuity can't solve every problem and b) people with absolute pitch should refrain from making and listening to music, unless they want to make themselves and others very unhappy.

If your Burns has made some considerable mileage, you'd probably come a long way if you had it set up completely from scratch. New strings, adjusting truss rod, have the frets dressed to equal wear and the nut heigth corrected accordingly. That would bring it back in the condition it had the moment its builder muttered "Sod it for cryssake, done with it. Next!"
Or just ignore it. Like I said before, if neither you nor your dog notices a problem, it isn't there
Last edited by Marcel Veltman at Aug 15, 2008,
#21
Quote by LeftyDave
I wish there was a guitar that had "perfect intonation"! If I could make one, I'd be a rich rich man. That, my friend, is THE Holy Grail of all guitaring, to acheive perfect intonation so that each and every note plays pure tones. If the note is supposed to be an F#, then it is truely an F#, not an F# plus or minus a few cents. The better quality the guitar, the closer it comes to this, but none can ever get there. It's the strings you see. They bend. One guy may press a little harder than the next guy, which will deliver a slightly different note.
The modern day guitar has what's called "equal temperament". All this fancy term means is that the frets are spaced such that the guitar approximates, to the best of it's ability, pure tones at all positions along the fretboard. Here's a link to a site that supposedly overcomes the inherent flaw of the equal tempered instrument. Check out the whacko frets and you'll see what it could take to acheive perfection.

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=36

So, back to your original question, which guitars. If you want a strat style, get a Fender. It's going to be a whole hell of a lot more accurate than any of the low end clones are. I myself own a cheapo Austin strat clone. It's got the same problem as yours. I never play it either, but keep it in C# tuning for when I want to crank out some Sabbath. For everything else, I play my Gibson SG. The SG's intonation is really nice by the way.



You mean the most expensive instruments have the best tone, how did I see that coming

Those guitars linked are whacko to say the least. Well, I may try a tech on this one. Thanks for all youe help and advice.
#22
Quote by Marcel Veltman
These Burnses, a bit oddball as they might be, usually are pretty well build. Unless someone with lesser qualifications modified it at some point, it should have it's bridge in the right position.

Like Lefty said (who is always right so he can keep up his reputation as The Threadkiller. My respons here is only to keep him from posting the last one once more) perfect intonation is an unachievable goal, unless you come up with some Unwieldy Solution to an Unsignificant Problem like mr. Thidell did from Lefty's link. It only proves that a) ingenuity can't solve every problem and b) people with absolute pitch should refrain from making and listening to music, unless they want to make themselves and others very unhappy.

If your Burns has made some considerable mileage, you'd probably come a long way if you had it set up completely from scratch. New strings, adjusting truss rod, have the frets dressed to equal wear and the nut heigth corrected accordingly. That would bring it back in the condition it had the moment its builder muttered "Sod it for cryssake, done with it. Next!"
Or just ignore it. Like I said before, if neither you nor your dog notices a problem, it isn't there



Yeah, I can't really hear it, until it was pointed out to me, now I might be imagining it.