#1
Well I know my major scales in all 12 keys, but not as well as I want to know them. At first I always used to play major scales and try to memorize which notes are sharp/flat, but that wasn't working. So now I've been trying to construct them as I'm playing, thinking about the distance between notes that I'm playing, and it seems like I'm stuck in a rut again. I just **** it up so much. Sometimes I will have the scale right in my head, but play the wrong notes, and other times I will have the notes wrong in my head, but I will accidentally play them right. I usually only **** up accidentals.

Can you suggest some things I should try?
#2
right out which notes should be played for a certain scale in a piece of paper, and improvise slowly to it maybe?
or just improvise looking at a scale diagram, like the ones at all-guitar-chords.com
#3
Is it better to aproach this by memorizing all the notes in a scale, or by trying to construct the scale as you play?
#4
Personally I learn a scale by first learning the finger positions and then doing
lots of patterns and scale studies in those positions all over the neck.

If I had to do it by constructing it on the fly or memorizing note names I doubt
I could ever play it fast enough do any improvisation or even just play the scale
linearly up & down. Seems to me that's an awful tedious approach that requires
too much thinking to actually play. Maybe that works for some people. If it does
it's hard for me to imagine how.
#5
Quote by edg
Personally I learn a scale by first learning the finger positions and then doing
lots of patterns and scale studies in those positions all over the neck.

If I had to do it by constructing it on the fly or memorizing note names I doubt
I could ever play it fast enough do any improvisation or even just play the scale
linearly up & down. Seems to me that's an awful tedious approach that requires
too much thinking to actually play. Maybe that works for some people. If it does
it's hard for me to imagine how.

+1

Once you learn the finger movements, it will become much easier to play all over the neck fluently. Yeah, it will probably take a long time and a lot of practice, but it's well worth it to be able to play the same notes over the entire fretboard.
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#6
Quote by edg
Personally I learn a scale by first learning the finger positions and then doing
lots of patterns and scale studies in those positions all over the neck.

If I had to do it by constructing it on the fly or memorizing note names I doubt
I could ever play it fast enough do any improvisation or even just play the scale
linearly up & down. Seems to me that's an awful tedious approach that requires
too much thinking to actually play. Maybe that works for some people. If it does
it's hard for me to imagine how.

I started this approach because, from what I understand, when you phrase, you want to sorta outline the underlying chord. I don't understand how that can be done without knowing all the notes on the fretboard or in a shape.

I was also under the impression that using shapes is "music by numbers". Am I just overcomplicating this?
#7
Quote by greekorican5
I started this approach because, from what I understand, when you phrase, you want to sorta outline the underlying chord. I don't understand how that can be done without knowing all the notes on the fretboard or in a shape.

I was also under the impression that using shapes is "music by numbers". Am I just overcomplicating this?


That's why I said "lots of patterns and scale studies" on top of just memorizing
finger positions. Most of the time, chord tones are just a subset of scale tones.
So playing all the harmonized arpeggios of the scale all over the neck (which are
part of patterns and scale studies) helps find chord tones quickly once you know the
arpeggio patterns. Everything is a pattern on the guitar. That's why I think playing
the guitar is basically a "pattern game". It's one thing knowing note names and
intervals when you're thinking about theory, it's quite another to be able to play
and execute them fast enough with your fingers.
#8
Quote by edg
That's why I said "lots of patterns and scale studies" on top of just memorizing
finger positions. Most of the time, chord tones are just a subset of scale tones.
So playing all the harmonized arpeggios of the scale all over the neck (which are
part of patterns and scale studies) helps find chord tones quickly once you know the
arpeggio patterns. Everything is a pattern on the guitar. That's why I think playing
the guitar is basically a "pattern game". It's one thing knowing note names and
intervals when you're thinking about theory, it's quite another to be able to play
and execute them fast enough with your fingers.

I was under the impression that if i knew the notes on the fretboard, I wouldn't have to memorize all those patterns in all keys, because I could just concentrate on the notes. I'm also struggling super hard at applying music theory to guitar. Maybe this is what I need.

So, how do you recommend I go about memorizing all those positions? 1 position and in all 12 keys, everyday? Or a few keys a day and all positions on the fretboard? Traditional vs Sweep (i think that's what their called) patterns, or both?

Could you elaborate on what you do in lots of "patterns and scale studies"? Or possibly guide me to a book or whatever that will teach me the same material?
Last edited by greekorican5 at Aug 11, 2008,
#9
If you know a pattern in 1 key, you know it in all keys -- it's just a matter of sliding
the pattern up & down the neck.

I highly recommend "Sheets of Sound" for scales. It will have everything you need
like arpeggios, intervals, and other patterns. The studies use a vareity of picking
techniques and it also focuses on moving vertically up & down the neck as much
as horizontal "in position" playing.
#10
I find the best way is to learn the patterns but be aware of what interval everything is. that way you can follow the chords and everything without actually thinking about every single note name.

I'm having trouble with major scale myself, but for different reasons. I just learned the minor scale first, because it works more with my kind of music, and got extremely good with minor scales, know em inside and out and can some kinda advanced theory to minor keys. and now to learn major I'm gonna have to go back and pretty much relearn the neck again but for the major scale (smacks forehead)

but I pretty much look at it this way, where I realize what degree of the scale everything in the pattern is.


|-R-|---|2nd|3rd|---|4th|---|5th|6th|---|7th|---||-R-|---|2nd|3rd|
|5th|6th|---|7th|---|-R-|---|2nd|3rd|---|4th|---||5th|6th|---|7th|
|3rd|---|4th|---|5th|6th|---|7th|---|-R-|---|2nd||3rd|---|4th|---|
|7th|---|-R-|---|2nd|3rd|---|4th|---|5th|6th|---||7th|---|-R-|---|
|4th|---|5th|6th|---|7th|---|-R-|---|2nd|3rd|---||4th|---|5th|6th|
|-R-|---|2nd|3rd|---|4th|---|5th|6th|---|7th|---||-R-|---|2nd|3rd|


this is minor, so the patterns will be different in major of course, but the same idea would apply. just learn the patterns of the scales, and then apply this way of looking at it.
#11
I don't find it too hard to memorize patterns, but I can't seem to picture all the patterns at once on the fretboard. What can I do to learn to link them together?
#12
Quote by Iron_Dude
+1

Once you learn the finger movements, it will become much easier to play all over the neck fluently. Yeah, it will probably take a long time and a lot of practice, but it's well worth it to be able to play the same notes over the entire fretboard.

That's not really recommended - scales aren't about finger movements, they're about the sound you make. You don't want to be able to play the scale istelf all over the neck, you simply want to be able to see it and use it accordingly.

Threadstarer, learn the chord progression derived from the scale, that'll account for the majority of the notes in the scale and help you visualize them on the fretboard
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#13
Quote by steven seagull
That's not really recommended - scales aren't about finger movements, they're about the sound you make. You don't want to be able to play the scale istelf all over the neck, you simply want to be able to see it and use it accordingly.

Threadstarer, learn the chord progression derived from the scale, that'll account for the majority of the notes in the scale and help you visualize them on the fretboard


I can't say I agree, it's about both. As this is somewhat old history, I'll just register
disagreement and leave it at that...
#14
Quote by steven seagull
That's not really recommended - scales aren't about finger movements, they're about the sound you make. You don't want to be able to play the scale istelf all over the neck, you simply want to be able to see it and use it accordingly.

Threadstarer, learn the chord progression derived from the scale, that'll account for the majority of the notes in the scale and help you visualize them on the fretboard


Knowing the patterns can help you find the "sounds you want to make". They can also reinforce your theory knowledge by giving you a visual representation that is directly applicable on the guitar. (this goes for all shapes/patterns)
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#15
Quote by GuitarMunky
Knowing the patterns can help you find the "sounds you want to make". They can also reinforce your theory knowledge by giving you a visual representation that is directly applicable on the guitar. (this goes for all shapes/patterns)

I see where you guys are coming from, I just don't think you should approach it with the aim of learning patterns or movements. I think it's important to keep in mind what your ultimate goal is which is to understand the scale and be able to use it, more a case of study these intervals, put them together, find them on the fretbaord and listen to the sounds they make and you will discover these shapes along the way rather than the other way round.
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...it's a seagull

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i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#16
ok, I've been trying to write a lesson on scales mostly to help myself understand it better since it seems to help me to write it out and look at it, but how I look at is you have to see how all the patterns fit into each other. I made a chart showing how they fit together, like I said, as much to help myself as to have something to help others with



 ______________       _____________   _________________
/ 1st Position \     / 3rd Position\ /   5th Position  \
|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|
|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|
|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|
|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|
|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|
|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|
        \__________________/ \_________________/ \_____________/
            2nd Position        4th Position      1st Position


there's the major scale and the positions in my way of looking at it

edit: does anyone think this is good enough to make a lesson out of it if I go into it more and make a chart like that for the minor scale?
#17
Quote by steven seagull
I see where you guys are coming from, I just don't think you should approach it with the aim of learning patterns or movements. I think it's important to keep in mind what your ultimate goal is which is to understand the scale and be able to use it, more a case of study these intervals, put them together, find them on the fretbaord and listen to the sounds they make and you will discover these shapes along the way rather than the other way round.


the ultimate goal is to make music.

Things like learning patterns, or understand scales aid in achieving the ultimate goal, but they are not the goal themselves.

There are many paths, follow the one that makes sense to you, but don't be so ignorant as to think you've found the one and only path that all must follow.
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