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#1
If you are soloing over an A minor chord progression and lets say the rythm guitarist gets to an A minor chord. Are you able to use the A dorian minor over it? If you are how would you because there is an F# located in the dorian scale and that is not found in the A natural minor scale...
#2
Dorian is a minor mode. The F# is a major 6, so with some clever phrasing you'll create the sound of Amin6.
#3
A minor chord can be used under dorian or any basic minor mode in the key of A.

A dorian has the notes of the minor chord so there doesn't seem to be any problems, correct me if i'm wrong.
鋼の錬金術師
Last edited by Punkismygod at Aug 13, 2008,
#5
Quote by Unreal T
If you are soloing over an A minor chord progression and lets say the rythm guitarist gets to an A minor chord. Are you able to use the A dorian minor over it? If you are how would you because there is an F# located in the dorian scale and that is not found in the A natural minor scale...


if the overall progression is from A minor, then it will likely sound inappropriate to use dorian over the A minor chord.

Now if the chord progression used the chords from G Major (1 sharp), but the tonal center was A minor...... then dorian is appropriate.

Keep in mind, your the artist, you can do what sounds right to you.
shred is gaudy music
#6
the A minor chord contains the 1st, minor 3rd, and the fifth, so if you were to play the A dorian and struck the F# which is the major 6th, it wouldn't really matter. it should sound fine. the A minor chord is pretty basic in its make up so you shouldn't have to worry about other minor modes.
Last edited by punkrocklove999 at Aug 13, 2008,
#7
The F# doesn't change the tonality of the A minor chord since it's not in it (The A minor chord uses A, C, and E notes). Therefore, I beleive you can use A Dorian over it.
#8
Quote by Unreal T
but how? an A minor chord doesnt contain any F#


I know it doesn't . It creates the sound of an extension.
#9
again..... A dorian, is not appropriate over a chord progression built from A minor.

it is appropriate over:

A static A minor chord
An A dorian vamp / progression

again its not a rule, you can do what you want, but do it because it sounds right, not because you want to say you "know modes".
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2008,
#10
Quote by quinny1089
i disagree


well thats fine.

Got any example of you successfully utilizing your idea?
shred is gaudy music
#11
There is a jazz concept where you approach each chord as an island. Am G F E7 is a common progression where you would play A natural minor over the first three chords and A harmonic minor over E7. Howerev, a jazz cat might play A Phrygian over Am, G Phrtgian Dominant over G, F Ionian over F, and then E Mixolydian over E.

If you apply this concept to your question, you can play A Dorian over any Am chord if you like the sound.
#12
see if you were to look at an A minor chord progression you would find that NONE of the chords C , Dm, F, G whatever contain an F# so basically thats what was confusing me. not necessarily the A minor chord. i really didnt see how A dorian minor would work over all of the chords starting with Am and then progressing to whatevet the next chord may be
Last edited by Unreal T at Aug 13, 2008,
#13
Quote by Unreal T
see if you were to look at an A minor chord progression you would find that NONE of the notes in any of the chords C , Dm, F, G whatever contain an F# so basically thats what was confusing me. not necessarily the A minor chord. thats what was confusin me


exactly, thats why its inappropriate.

A dorian shares the key signature of G major/Eminor........ not A minor.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
There is a jazz concept where you approach each chord as an island. Am G F E7 is a common progression where you would play A natural minor over the first three chords and A harmonic minor over E7. Howerev, a jazz cat might play A Phrygian over Am, G Phrtgian Dominant over G, F Ionian over F, and then E Mixolydian over E.

If you apply this concept to your question, you can play A Dorian over any Am chord if you like the sound.


They do not see chords as "islands". They do utilize various colors over the chords, but the chords still have a functional relationship.

A dorian would not commonly be used over a purely A minor progression in jazz or any other style.

It would most likely be used by someone obsessed with "using modes" for the sake of using scales with big impressive sounding names.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2008,
#14
Quote by Unreal T
see if you were to look at an A minor chord progression you would find that NONE of the chords C , Dm, F, G whatever contain an F# so basically thats what was confusing me. not necessarily the A minor chord. thats what was confusin me


Then just use A Aeolian, but if you want to land on the F# for the Amin chord then go ahead. In effect you'll be using Dorian at that specific point in time.
Last edited by mdc at Aug 13, 2008,
#15
Quote by mdc
The just use A Aeolian, but if you want land on the F# for the Amin chord then go ahead. In effect you'll be using Dorian at that specific point in time.



Na, it wont sound like dorian if the chord progression doesnt support it.


To the TS:

try it and listen. Do you think it sounds good? If so use it, if not, then don't.

Your not going to get a clear answer here beyond what has already been said.
shred is gaudy music
#16
Quote by GuitarMunky
do not see chords as "islands". They do utilize various colors over the chords, but the chords still have a functional relationship.
"Archipelago," then.
#17
Quote by bangoodcharlote
"Archipelago," then.


We could go hopping.....

Quote by GuitarMunky
Na, it wont sound like dorian if the chord progression doesnt support it.


Back to post #9.
Last edited by mdc at Aug 13, 2008,
#18
Quote by mdc


Back to post #9.


a 13 over the i chord in a purely minor progression is an inappropriate extension. It will likely sound "out of place".

it works as a passing tone like in a line cliche, but it doesn't achieve the dorian sound if its not supported by the chord progression.

You can do what you want, but if your talking about being consistent with common usage: A dorian over an A minor progression is not appropriate.

if you have an example of you doing it and sounding great, I would love to hear it.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2008,
#19
Quote by bangoodcharlote
There is a jazz concept where you approach each chord as an island.


Yeah, I could see how you'd tend to get that idea if you've read Levine's
"Jazz Theory". The first part of the book seems to strongly imply this. It's one
of the reasons I don't like it as much as some similar books, although it's overall
decent. You can pull chords out of context to a certain degree, but not entirely
IMO.
#20
Quote by edg
You can pull chords out of context to a certain degree, but not entirely
IMO.
Right, which is why I altered my original wording to "archipelago" rather than "island" to suggest that whatever you play makes sense in the overall context of the piece, even if your note choice over each chord is a bit odd according to classical theory.
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
a 13 over the i chord in a purely minor progression is an inappropriate extension. It will likely sound "out of place".

if you have an example of you doing it and sounding great, I would love to hear it.


Sure no problem "Da dada daaaa"

Quote by mdc
Back to post #9.


What I said here ^ would relate to BGC's comments about "islands".
#22
Quote by mdc
Sure no problem "Da dada daaaa"


What I said here ^ would relate to BGC's comments about "islands".



Well, I don't want to argue about it. Just try it. if it truly sounds good to you, then great.

but to the TS:

it would not be consistent with common musical practices.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2008,
#23
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, I don't want to argue about it. Just try it. if it truly sounds good to you, then great.


Me neither.

Quote by GuitarMunky
it would not be consistent with common musical practices.


I do this a lot to create modal sounds, your gonna disagree on that I think (sorry), but I would sometimes sweep a B minor arp over an Aminor chord to bring out Dorian (sorry again).

Is that common musical practice? Sometimes I just don't like to sound too "normal" or predictable when improvising, or writing an arranged solo.

Sweeping an arp of the same root or using a "diatonic scale" (in this case Amin) just sounds all too familiar sometimes.
#24
Quote by mdc
I do this a lot to create modal sounds, your gonna disagree on that I think (sorry), but I would sometimes sweep a B minor arp over an Aminor chord to bring out Dorian (sorry again).

Is that common musical practice? Sometimes I just don't like to sound too "normal" or predictable when improvising, or writing an arranged solo.

Sweeping an arp of the same root or using a "diatonic scale" (in this case Amin) just sounds all too familiar sometimes.
That actually isn't so unusual.
#25
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That actually isn't so unusual.


Good. So it is common musical practice.
#26
Quote by mdc
Good. So it is common musical practice.
I'll give you that it is not weird in jazz, but jazz is weird and does unusual things, so it might be a bit inaccurate to call it "common musical practice."


In general, just think about my "archipelago" comment.
#27
Quote by mdc
Me neither.


I do this a lot to create modal sounds, your gonna disagree on that I think (sorry), but I would sometimes sweep a B minor arp over an Aminor chord to bring out Dorian (sorry again).

Is that common musical practice? Sometimes I just don't like to sound too "normal" or predictable when improvising, or writing an arranged solo.

Sweeping an arp of the same root or using a "diatonic scale" (in this case Amin) just sounds all too familiar sometimes.


dont be sorry, just post an audio example of you doing it. If it sounds good, it is good.

btw context is key in this issue. chances are if it sounds good, your minor chord is functioning as a ii chord.... not the tonic i.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
I'll give you that it is not weird in jazz, but jazz is weird and does unusual things, so it might be a bit inaccurate to call it "common musical practice."


In general, just think about my "archipelago" comment.


Its not anything like an island or archipelago. Its a matter of context and a matter of bringing out acceptable colors over a particular chord based on that context.

There are alot of options, but its still based on functional harmony.

Quote by mdc
Good. So it is common musical practice.


LOL just because BGC says so ?? (sorry BGC). How about finding some actual musical examples before determining whats common or not. All we can do is argue..... the truth can be found in the music itself.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2008,
#28
Okay let's talk about an example then.

Drink the Paycheque (in my profile), at 1:33. Over a B5 in E minor the unison bends are B C# D C# then E over the E5.
I think of this as E dorian and I think it sounds like E dorian.

I think it would still sound like E dorian over E5 (ie if the progression was E5 G5 A5 E5 instead of E5 G5 A5 B5). If I used triads (Em G Am Bm or Em G Am Em) I still think it would sound like E dorian.

So, what's really going on?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#29
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Okay let's talk about an example then.

Drink the Paycheque (in my profile), at 1:33. Over a B5 in E minor the unison bends are B C# D C# then E over the E5.
I think of this as E dorian and I think it sounds like E dorian.

I think it would still sound like E dorian over E5 (ie if the progression was E5 G5 A5 E5 instead of E5 G5 A5 B5). If I used triads (Em G Am Bm or Em G Am Em) I still think it would sound like E dorian.

So, what's really going on?


definitely doesn't sound like E dorian. Your playing it over the B and you hear it as it relates to B.

To be honest though, the C# kinda sounds like a "wrong"... or "misplaced" ....or "out of key" note in comparison to the rest of the song. out of curiosity did you play those notes based on sound.... or were you forcing dorian in there? I get the impression that it was an intentional use of dorian based on the desire to use dorian... more so than something you heard. (obviously I could be wrong)

- try it with a C instead of C#. I think that would be more consistent with the rest of the song.


The rest of the solo = E minor / E minor pent / E minor blues.

The song over all sounds clearly like E minor .... E minor pentatonic.

BTW no offense intended. I like what you did.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2008,
#30
Quote by Dan
Your playing it over the B and you hear it as it relates to B.
So it's some form of B minor?

To be honest though, the C# kinda sounds like a "wrong"... or "misplaced" ....or "out of key" note in comparison to the rest of the song.
Which is what makes it sound so right, in my opinion.

out of curiosity did you play those notes based on sound.... or were you forcing dorian in there? I get the impression that it was an intentional use of dorian based on the desire to use dorian... more so than something you heard. (obviously I could be wrong)
Yeah, you're wrong The rest of the solo is improvised (hence the pentatonic) but I always lead in to the solo the same way. Staying with E minor for those unisons wasn't the sound I was after, dorian (or B minor) was.


The rest of the solo = E minor / E minor pent / E minor blues.

The song over all sounds clearly like E minor .... E minor pentatonic.

Exactly

BTW no offense intended. I like what you did.
None taken, thanks.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#31
Quote by Ænimus Prime
So it's some form of B minor?

Which is what makes it sound so right, in my opinion.

Yeah, you're wrong The rest of the solo is improvised (hence the pentatonic) but I always lead in to the solo the same way. Staying with E minor for those unisons wasn't the sound I was after, dorian (or B minor) was.


Exactly

None taken, thanks.


if it sounds good to you it is good.

if you want to hear E dorian..... play it over a single E minor chord. Listen to the color the natural 6 gives you..... thats dorian.

Your example doesn't achieve that dorian sound..... but it sounds fine.
shred is gaudy music
#32
depends on the genre you are playing

if you look at blues you can play dorian scale over major progression and a minor it's realy what you are trying to achieve.

modes are just tools to achieve a certain sound but it is not restricted to a certain genre.

just like how dorian is used in blues aswell as spanish/latin type music
#33
Quote by Dan
Your example doesn't achieve that dorian sound
Then what sound does it achieve? What do you think is actually going on?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#34
Quote by bangoodcharlote
There is a jazz concept where you approach each chord as an island. Am G F E7 is a common progression where you would play A natural minor over the first three chords and A harmonic minor over E7. Howerev, a jazz cat might play A Phrygian over Am, G Phrtgian Dominant over G, F Ionian over F, and then E Mixolydian over E.

If you apply this concept to your question, you can play A Dorian over any Am chord if you like the sound.



nah, probably not.. jazz still has to make sense. That progression is not jazzy at all btw, you should have used a ii V I or a I vi ii V I for your example.

A jazz player would probably play that in harmonic minor but use a few chord subs and use a few chromatic tones to color their lines
#35
Quote by Unreal T
but how? an A minor chord doesnt contain any F#


notes in A minor:

A, C, E

the scale you use only needs to have those notes in it

notes in A Dorian:

A, B, C, D, E, F#, G.

it will work.
My sig used to be so awesome it got me banned
#36
I find this thread extrememly pleasing on the basis that I agree with everyone to a certain degree. Most jazz musicians do indeed treat each chord "as an island" (Thanks sue for such an awesome term). The more common term is "playing the changes."

But Munky is right to say it can sound out of place, sometimes more so than other times. Like over the V7 chord in a i-V7 progression, you'd only want to play either mixolydian flat six or phrygian dominant over that. In such situations, you still have a choice, but it just means you've got a few less choices.

But when your using a minor chord thats functioning like any other minor chord in a major progression, you wouldnt sound out of place with using phrygian or dorian or aeolian.
Quote by edg
Yeah, I could see how you'd tend to get that idea if you've read Levine's
"Jazz Theory". The first part of the book seems to strongly imply this. It's one
of the reasons I don't like it as much as some similar books, although it's overall
decent. You can pull chords out of context to a certain degree, but not entirely
IMO.
Its not just levines book. Jody fischer's book and possibly the lydian chromatic concept (I actually havent gotten around to reading it ) suggests the same thing. I might be wrong, but I think Davis used to refer to his playing as "playing the changes."
Last edited by demonofthenight at Aug 14, 2008,
#37
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Then what sound does it achieve?

B minor, more than anything else.

Quote by Ænimus Prime
What do you think is actually going on?



I guess "change of mode" describes what is going on. Or maybe you "briefly implied a new key"

I don't know really, all I can do is describe what I hear, based on my experiences with music. Which I did in my 1st post.

tell me this. What were you thinking when you played that part ? What was your focus ?
shred is gaudy music
#38
I dont know why UG puts so much emphasis on modes. Few guitarists actually use anything else than harmonic minor scales. Emphasis should be put on learning the notes in the chords you are playing over and phrasing correctly.

EDIT: Also, whatever sounds good, sounds good. Theory is not a set of rules, just some suggestions. If going from a 3 to a b3 sounds bad but b3-3 sounds good, go for it.
Last edited by deleriumtrigger at Aug 14, 2008,
#40
Quote by ouchies
UG is pretty much full of sophomoric musician super composer guitar wannabes


Thats the impression I have been given. UG seems too eager to blow someones socks off than to play with tact.
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