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#1
im completely self taught and play for hours everyday. i feel like physically i am improving ever day as i am able to play faster and my fluidly through scales, but i am finding one thing thats really hard to teach yourself is phrasing techniques. i can play through scales until my fingers bleed but thats not music. i really want to start writing my own stuff and i just cant even make anything that is a satisfiable riff. im looking for any kind of advice to help with my problem and would also invite you guys to share some lessons i could find on the internet if you know of any good ones.


thanks
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#2
Phrasing is something that you'll probably best learn from guitarists who are great at it. Good phrasing, to me, at least, is as much knowing when to play as what to play. While it can be cool to go crazy and play real fast, it can be better to slow down and leave some space in your playing, and not play so much, because then what you do play has a little more meaning and/or power. Albert King and B.B. King are probably two of the best players that I know of with great phrasing. Unfortunately, I'm don't know much about rage against the machine or satriani or any of the guys you like a lot, so I can't point you to any songs of theirs that show good phrasing.

Hope this helps,
claptonfan55
"Notes are expensive. . .use them wisely"-B.B. King

"It's been very important throughout my career that I've met all the guys I've copied, because at each stage they've said, 'Don't play like me, play like you."-Eric Clapton
#3
Quote by ratm92
i can play through scales until my fingers bleed but thats not music.


Instead of making your fingers bleed, try pulling out musical qualities in the scales
when you're practicing them. They're in there, you're just not seeing or feeling
them.

A good thing to do with scale practice that's really helpful for phrasing is taking
the same scale run or pattern and playing it at different rhythms -- like 8th,
triplets, 16ths, ... Different rhythms can completely change how the same notes
feel. For example, a pattern that's in a kind of "groups of 4" can sound rather
dull when played as 16th or 8th notes, but takes on a whole new quality of
movement played as triplets or 5 notes per beat.
#4
Quote by edg
Instead of making your fingers bleed, try pulling out musical qualities in the scales
when you're practicing them. They're in there, you're just not seeing or feeling
them.

A good thing to do with scale practice that's really helpful for phrasing is taking
the same scale run or pattern and playing it at different rhythms -- like 8th,
triplets, 16ths, ... Different rhythms can completely change how the same notes
feel. For example, a pattern that's in a kind of "groups of 4" can sound rather
dull when played as 16th or 8th notes, but takes on a whole new quality of
movement played as triplets or 5 notes per beat.


Agreed, also look into coils, sequences and playing interval patterns.
#5
Quote by edg
A good thing to do with scale practice that's really helpful for phrasing is taking
the same scale run or pattern and playing it at different rhythms -- like 8th,
triplets, 16ths, ... Different rhythms can completely change how the same notes
feel. For example, a pattern that's in a kind of "groups of 4" can sound rather
dull when played as 16th or 8th notes, but takes on a whole new quality of
movement played as triplets or 5 notes per beat.

It's very funny, I played the major scale in groupings of 7 on every click in 40 bpm, and I always refer to the Home Movies song, "Don't Put Marbles In Your Nose". It's very funny, in 7/4 and then switches to 10/4 or something like that. Very funny indeedy.
#6
Quote by ratm92
im completely self taught and play for hours everyday. i feel like physically i am improving ever day as i am able to play faster and my fluidly through scales, but i am finding one thing thats really hard to teach yourself is phrasing techniques. i can play through scales until my fingers bleed but thats not music. i really want to start writing my own stuff and i just cant even make anything that is a satisfiable riff. im looking for any kind of advice to help with my problem and would also invite you guys to share some lessons i could find on the internet if you know of any good ones.


thanks


well one thing you can do is just take a lick, a phrase, and sequence of notes, etc... and each time you play it, try to change it slightly. maybe bend up to one note. maybe a half bend, whole bend, or a wide bend. you could change the timming a bit, add or take away notes, repeat a part, etc... just keep playing that part over and over and find new ways to do it. change the part of the neck you do it on as well. that may open you up to other ideas.

phrasing comes with time. eventually after playing for a long time you will end up with phrases that you always use. and you will have your own style of doing these phrases. im starting to get to that point where i have my own style. before i just sounded like whoever i listened to the most at the time. but now im starting to sound like me. because ive taken those influences and put a new spin on them to make it my own.
#7
Hmm, try this: relax and get into some kind of "inner rhythm groove", you know, make your whole body and mind part of the rhythm

Then play notes from your scales, but try not to lose the rhythm, play them just like you would improvise with your voice, or imagine other instruments like horns ans imitate them.
#10
Phrasing is very much impied in the rhythm and melody, so you have to figure out how to play them, and that isn't something you are taught (you aren't taught how to phrase and form the musical phrases, you may learn all the theory reagarding rhythm, and taught how to chanalize your creativity better, but the rest depends on you I guess)...

I would say focus on a key or scale, and try different little melodies that come from your head or just throwing notes around. Then try to set a mood and follow it using your phrasing and note choice, and then continue...
#11
Quote by gonzaw
Phrasing is very much impied in the rhythm and melody, so you have to figure out how to play them, and that isn't something you are taught (you aren't taught how to phrase and form the musical phrases, you may learn all the theory reagarding rhythm, and taught how to chanalize your creativity better, but the rest depends on you I guess)...

I would say focus on a key or scale, and try different little melodies that come from your head or just throwing notes around. Then try to set a mood and follow it using your phrasing and note choice, and then continue...


Phrasing can be studied and practiced just like any other definable aspect of music.
shred is gaudy music
#12
Quote by edg
Instead of making your fingers bleed, try pulling out musical qualities in the scales
when you're practicing them. They're in there, you're just not seeing or feeling
them.

A good thing to do with scale practice that's really helpful for phrasing is taking
the same scale run or pattern and playing it at different rhythms -- like 8th,
triplets, 16ths, ... Different rhythms can completely change how the same notes
feel. For example, a pattern that's in a kind of "groups of 4" can sound rather
dull when played as 16th or 8th notes, but takes on a whole new quality of
movement played as triplets or 5 notes per beat.

Yup...time to stop blindly playing the scales and instead try to see what you can make with them..
Actually called Mark!

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#13
Quote by GuitarMunky
Phrasing can be studied and practiced just like any other definable aspect of music.


Of course, but there isn't a definitive way to practise phrasing, you can follow a set of patterns and work your way from there (like when composing)
#14
Quote by gonzaw
Of course, but there isn't a definitive way to practise phrasing, you can follow a set of patterns and work your way from there (like when composing)


Sure there are definitive ways to practice phrasing. Like any other aspect of music..... If there is a concept that can be understood..... it can be practiced.

Quote by steven seagull
Yup...time to stop blindly playing the scales and instead try to see what you can make with them..


yep, like music.
shred is gaudy music
#15
Quote by GuitarMunky
Sure there are definitive ways to practice phrasing. Like any other aspect of music..... If there is a concept that can be understood..... it can be practiced.


But no one is going to say "for practising phrasing you have to play in 4/4 and accentuate the first and fourth beat and start with a femenine rhythm and proceed to apply syncopation in the next measure and...."....
You can learn the theory behind it, but just as composing no one can tell you how to do it, but only which patterns to follow, etc....
#16
Quote by gonzaw
But no one is going to say "for practising phrasing you have to play in 4/4 and accentuate the first and fourth beat and start with a femenine rhythm and proceed to apply syncopation in the next measure and...."....
You can learn the theory behind it, but just as composing no one can tell you how to do it, but only which patterns to follow, etc....


who knows "what someone will say".

regardless......A phrase (and phrasing) is a definable element of music. It can be taught, learned, and practiced.

education doesn't dictate what we "have to" do in our own art. Whether its scale construction, or phrasing..... its all the same. We learn, and then we consider that knowledge as we make our own unique art.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 18, 2008,
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
A phrase is an element of music. It can be taught, learned, and practiced.



But generally "phrasing" refers to composing musical phrases (and melody rhythm and such). YOu can't "learn" what kind of phrase you are going to use in your composition. You learn all you have to learn about phrases, and then apply it to your composition the way you want. But we don't know what someone "wants" to do with their composition, so unless we know it is kind of hard for us to tell him which phrase to use/how to use it/etc. We can only advice him how to expand his knowledge of phrases and how he could apply it in certain cases, and how to make him more creative, etc I suppose...


education doesn't dictate what we "have to" do in our own art. Whether its scale construction, or phrasing..... its all the same. We learn, and then we consider that knowledge as we make our own unique art.


That's what I've been saying...
Last edited by gonzaw at Aug 18, 2008,
#18
Quote by gonzaw
But generally "phrasing" refers to composing musical phrases (and melody rhythm and such). YOu can't "learn" what kind of phrase you are going to use in your composition. You learn all you have to learn about phrases, and then apply it to your composition the way you want. But we don't know what someone "wants" to do with their composition, so unless we know it is kind of hard for us to tell him which phrase to use/how to use it/etc. We can only advice him how to expand his knowledge of phrases and how he could apply it in certain cases, and how to make him more creative, etc I suppose...


That's what I've been saying...


studying music isn't about telling people what they have to use in their own composition. Studying phrasing falls in the realm of studying music. What you do with that knowledge is your own business.

it sounds like your separating studying phrasing.... and studying theory. They are not separate.... they are both part of "studying music".
shred is gaudy music
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
studying music isn't about telling people what they have to use in their own composition. Studying phrasing falls in the realm of studying music. What you do with that knowledge is your own business.

it sounds like your separating studying phrasing.... and studying theory. They are not separate.... they are both part of "studying music".


I was kind of separating "studying phrasing" and "studying scale composition/history of music/reading standard notation/etc". Like separating the ones that are to be used in your composition (phrasing, progressions, etc) and the ones that are more of a background knowledge which are independant of your compositions....

You said "there are definite ways to practise phrasing" so I thought you said that "studying music is about telling people what they have to use in their own compositions" in some way. Like you were saying that you could practise phrasing only one way or something...

How is there a definite way to practise phrasing? You know, like a universal one?
#20
Quote by gonzaw
I was kind of separating "studying phrasing" and "studying scale composition/history of music/reading standard notation/etc". Like separating the ones that are to be used in your composition (phrasing, progressions, etc) and the ones that are more of a background knowledge which are independant of your compositions....

You said "there are definite ways to practise phrasing" so I thought you said that "studying music is about telling people what they have to use in their own compositions"

How is there a definite way to practise phrasing? You know, like a universal one?



Learn what phrases are
listen to phrases
study phrases in music
play phrases
compose phrases
when you improvise focus on your phrases... ( are they 4 bars.... 8 bars... 2 bars....)


in a nutshell..... focus on phrases.


there is no reason to separate the idea of phrases, from any other musical concept. They all fall into the same category: "something to learn about music"



try this:

jam over a backing track, but specifically try to play phrases of a certain length. Try 4 bar phrases for starters, then move on from there.

Take a phrase that you like from a melody or solo. Try to emulate the phrase. Not the notes themselves, but the rhythm and form.

Things like this will teach you to focus on that element of music and gain more control over it.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 18, 2008,
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
Learn what phrases are
listen to phrases
study phrases in music
play phrases
compose phrases
when you improvise focus on your phrases... ( are they 4 bars.... 8 bars... 2 bars....)


in a nutshell..... focus on phrases.


Agreed...
(kind of what I said in the first place well..)

So why are we arguing for?

Quote by GuitarMunky

there is no reason to separate the idea of phrases, from any other musical concept.
.


Not only about phrasing, but about composition...
In music theory every concept applies to compositions, but some of them are dependant of it (like phrasing, which implies composition) while other are not (you can know them and study systematically without having to retort to composing, like scales, etc).
The composing ones are the ones in which there isn't a "definite" set of things to do or practise. What you gave was a set of rules or patterns to follow, but there isn't a definite way of "composing phrases" for instance, while there is a definite way of "learning scales/harmony/intervals/counterpoint/etc/walking/reading standard notation/etc"....
Last edited by gonzaw at Aug 18, 2008,
#22
Quote by gonzaw
Agreed...
(kind of what I said in the first place well..)

So why are we arguing for?



Thats what I want to know.
shred is gaudy music
#25
Quote by gonzaw
Also...
Bars were measures right?

Cause I barely remember english terminology


yep bars = measures

Quote by RichieJovie
Why do certain people consider Marty Friedman to be the be all and end all of phrasing and guitar playing? He isn't.



I dunno... I think thats more around here. Im not much of a Friedman fan, although I do like some of his work. I can certainly think of other players that I enjoy listening to much more.

I think at a certain stage peoples favorite players are "the best" at..... "everything" pretty much. That narrow view tends to change when you see the big picture and realize how many great players there actually are.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 18, 2008,
#26
Quote by RichieJovie
Why do certain people consider Marty Friedman to be the be all and end all of phrasing and guitar playing? He isn't.


because hes d@mn good at it. some people consider gilmour to be the end all be all of phrasing. i think they're both incredibly good at what they do.
#27
I don't see anyone as the "be all and end all"........ of anything. I think its a mistake to do so.
shred is gaudy music
#28
He is?

Each to their own.

I always thought Jason Becker was infinitely better.
I watched the video thought he was trying to be clever for the sake of it.
I then saw some of his Japanese gameshow thing and saw him get wiped by Lukather...

I know who I prefer.

I suspect I just made a death list somewhere for daring to speak out against Lord Marty.

Personal preference... I think he sucks.
Last edited by RichieJovie at Aug 18, 2008,
#29
Quote by RichieJovie
Why do certain people consider Marty Friedman to be the be all and end all of phrasing and guitar playing? He isn't.

I think its mainly because everytime some asks about phrasing they get a link to his melodic control lesson. Which in my opinion isnt great. Hes a great player but i didnt find that lesson to be that great and hes not even close to popping to mind if someone asked me which guitarist i think has the best phrasing in solos.
#30
Quote by /-\liceNChains
I think its mainly because everytime some asks about phrasing they get a link to his melodic control lesson. Which in my opinion isnt great. Hes a great player but i didnt find that lesson to be that great and hes not even close to popping to mind if someone asked me which guitarist i think has the best phrasing in solos.



I'm not alone,..... hurrah..
#31
Quote by /-\liceNChains
I think its mainly because everytime some asks about phrasing they get a link to his melodic control lesson. Which in my opinion isnt great. Hes a great player but i didnt find that lesson to be that great and hes not even close to popping to mind if someone asked me which guitarist i think has the best phrasing in solos.


+1
shred is gaudy music
#34
Quote by gonzaw
I think Guthrie Govan has some good phrasings (at least in the few songs I heard)....
I don't really know which other one pops in my mind, since I don't listen to lots of guitarists...


Yeah the guy is an amazing player, and has great phrasing !

Quote by bangoodcharlote
Since my "Melodic Control" video is so hated, why don't one of you go find a better video?


not hated... but possibly over-rated. To be fair there is alot one could learn from the video. Im not sure phrasing is one of them, but the idea of knowing your chord tones is presented fairly well as are some other concepts. Thats my take on it anyway.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 18, 2008,
#35
How is Melodic Control not a good instructional vid? HOW???

It's a great resource, and Marty gives you ideas and habits on how to develop a mindset on your own soloing instead of just showing off some of his hot licks. (eg, he doesn't give you a fish, he teaches you how to fish!)
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Thin necks make you play faster because guitars with thin necks sound thin and bad, and you play fast to distract people from the bad tone.
#36
Quote by thefoldarsoldar
(eg, he doesn't give you a fish, he teaches you how to fish!)
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life. Light a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life!"

A friend told me that and since the fishing part came up, I thought I would share the rest with you all.
#37
Quote by thefoldarsoldar
How is Melodic Control not a good instructional vid? HOW???

It's a great resource, and Marty gives you ideas and habits on how to develop a mindset on your own soloing instead of just showing off some of his hot licks. (eg, he doesn't give you a fish, he teaches you how to fish!)



http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=scott+henderson&emb=0#

There you go.


Sorted.
#38
Listening to a lot of different music could help. This leads you to being more inspired. Not only listen to the music, but study it and get to learn what you think sound good, if I can say. It's nothing too big but it definatly helps.
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1. Tits.
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#39
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Since my "Melodic Control" video is so hated, why don't one of you go find a better video?

Its marty friedmans video not your video and I didnt say I hated it I said i don't think its great. I didnt hear anyone else say they hated it either. I just didnt find it helpfull it showed me things that are pritty much common sense. The only way to get better is to practice. You don't need to be offended because a few people didnt find a video you like helpfull.
Last edited by /-\liceNChains at Aug 19, 2008,
#40
Quote by /-\liceNChains
Its marty friedmans video not your video and I didnt say I hated it I said i don't think its great. I didnt hear anyone else say they hated it either. I just didnt find it helpfull it showed me things that are pritty much common sense. The only way to get better is to practice. You don't need to be offended because a few people didnt find a video you like helpfull.



Unless BGC is infact Marty Friedman himself. In which case can I just say Dragons Kiss was appalling.
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