#1
I am a natural economy picker, I find it difficult to alternate pick as I don't see any of the advantages over eco picking. My guitar teacher was teaching me a part of no boundaries by MAB and he said I needed to alt pick it because if I eco picked it I would be inside picking the b and e string (i'll put the part i had to learn below) and then I went home practicing alt picking but thought to myself why outside picking was easier/better than inside picking and I couldn't think how it was. Could someone explain how it could be easier?

This is the part of the song how I played it:
first time
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----D---U--D---D---U--D--
second time
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----U---D--U---D---U--D--

This is how he wanted me to play it:
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----D---U--D---U---D--U--

I understand everything about the two methods of picking but I just dont see how outside picking this is better than inside picking it.
Last edited by jdmarsh2005 at Aug 20, 2008,
#2
it's not. at all. if you want to economy pick it, do it. it's not up to the teacher to order what path you'll take in playing. he just gives you choices. you make the one you find better.
#3
He said it would make things easier for me, is the method of picking really down to personal preference? Does it effect the playing?
#4
i'm a economy picker myself, and i never used that kind of outside picking. i never needed it. and i can play that part of the song, specifically with regular economy picking. if you think about it, what you're doing is just save time, nothing else.
and what about you? do you play it easier with economy picking or straight alt?
#5
Well I always naturally economy pick EVERYTHING. I think when I started I subconsciously chose to do that because it was the most economical way to pick and I always find the easiest way to do something. I know that if I was not playing as well or if I could be a better player by using alternate picking then I would learn it but I didn't see the advantages.

I thought if I was a natural economy picker then I wouldn't need to learn to alternate pick.

My guitar teacher says there are just some things you can't avoid alternate picking on, I believe this is true but if you eco pick those things then you will end up alternate picking in reverse. which happens in the tab I posted above and I have read some people saying that the change between the first cycle and the second is difficult to cope with but because I do it naturally and find it easy it is not a problem for me.
#6
Honestly, I've always been an alternate picker from the beginning but in a section like that, I really don't see how one would have an advantage over the other unless there is something before or after this section that I am not seeing. Perhaps it is easier for him to alternate pick it, but it might be easier for you to economy pick it. Why not practice both in case something in the future ever comes up that might require one or the other? That's what I would do.
#7
^ i have NEVER, seen something that needs to be outside picked. and i mean that. if you have, please show me. but i've really never seen such thing, and don't think it exists at all.
#8
The problem with that is that after you hit the first string you have a downstroke and you need to skip 2 strings to up pick the next note rather than up picking the first and only jumping over one string which is easier in my opinion although you technically are skipping the string you just hit it is a little easier because you just hit it. You might not understand my logic, i don't think i described it very well.
#9
Quote by jdmarsh2005

second time
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----U---D--U---D---U--D--

This is how he wanted me to play it:
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----D---U--D---U---D--U--


Economy picking is not wrong. If anything it should be the way everything is played because it eliminates the extra motion found in alternate picking. However I prefer alternate picking because the motion is always constant: down up down up down up ...
Most alternate pickers prefer outside picking and find it easier, I know this for a fact. The lick you posted would be harder to play accurately with inside picking because when you go to down pick the E string you have a possibility to accidentally pick the B string. I made up a long scalar exercise for that type of lick, and I play it all with outside picking. When you want to repeat that lick in a cycle using economy picking, the pattern changes. You do it the first time with a down stroke, and end up doing it the second time with an up stroke:

e---------------17------------------------17----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--17-18-20------20-18-17
----D---U--D---D---U--D---U---D--U---D---U--D--U

You get to a point where you can't use economy picking.
In the end it's all a matter of what feels natural to the player.
#10
I know it changes thats why I put the first and second cycle of it down for economy picking.

But there is a problem of when alternate picking you may hit the b string twice when you skip over it to do a down stroke on it after hitting the e.
#11
Quote by Amerikhastan
It's best to outside pick string skipping licks, that way you are avoiding the risk of hitting all the other strings in between when making the transition to one string to the next.


not if you practice it correctly
#12
Personally, I don't like economy picking. I feel like the direction changes break up the flow of my picking. But in the end, this is a matter of preference. You can't argue with the results of great players like MAB who use it, just like you can't argue with the results of equally great players like Paul Gilbert who avoid it.
#13
Well i'm sure its just as difficult learning how to not hit the wrong strings when you alternate pick. Paul Gilbert probably thinks its more difficult inside picking because he just cant do it as well as he can outside picking, just becuase he says HE cant inside pick quickly without hitting wrong strings doesnt mean other people cant.

And yes you can't argue it is a very good method but economy picking is just as good. Perhaps better.
Last edited by jdmarsh2005 at Aug 20, 2008,
#14
^^ both of those 2 guys are alt pickers

^ just stick to what you feel most comfortable with. so far i've had great results with econ. and i won't give up on it
#15
Quote by RCalisto
^^ both of those 2 guys are alt pickers


Though MAB isn't a strict alt picker, right? Whereas PG is. I'll have to bust out No Boundaries on You tube again and check his picking out.
#16
Me personally, I would alternate pick that like your teacher said to. It makes a lot more sense logically, to not have to switch your beginning stroke like that. You have your choice, but if you are unable to perform it the way he suggested I'd at least get comfortable with some outside picking as it will make playing some licks easier for sure. I've never seen a competent guitarist who hasn't mastered both.
#17
^^ yes he is. he talks about that in some instructional video of his.

^ not needed. no lick i've seen so far needs outside picking, or makes it easier at all. and guess what lol, to me it doesn't make sense to alt pick strictly. it's just a matter of personal choice really.
#18
Why not just practice them all?

There's definitely situations you'll encounter inside or outside picking. Economy vs
Alternate I don't even consider replacements -- they're simply two different things.

I practice all ways of doing things that I'm likely to use. Avoiding any one of these,
pretty much by definition, puts limits on your playing. So, you can either choose
to live with the limits, or practice.
#19
Quote by RCalisto
^^ yes he is. he talks about that in some instructional video of his.


I edited this by accident instead of quoting it. Anyway, what I was trying to say before I blasted my original post was that I was aware that MAB alt picked standard 3nps type runs, but wasn't sure about other cases like the first 8 notes of the fast part of the neoclassical section of NB (2 quick 1 nps arps over 3 strings, followed by a quick descending 3 nps run).

So since you'd got me curious about it, I checked it out both versions, old and new. Interestingly, young mab econo picks it. Middle-aged mab alt picks it. I'm about 80% sure about this. It's not easy to decipher since he's not exactly playing slowly! Of course, you could consider the way young mab plays it to be a sweep, but it's short enough and enough in the context of an otherwise alt picked run, that it could equally be considered econo-picking.
Last edited by se012101 at Aug 20, 2008,
#20
I think it's not that important, I will probably learn it if I have A LOT of spare time but there are better ways to spend practice time.
#21
Quote by jdmarsh2005
I am a natural economy picker, I find it difficult to alternate pick as I don't see any of the advantages over eco picking. My guitar teacher was teaching me a part of no boundaries by MAB and he said I needed to alt pick it because if I eco picked it I would be inside picking the b and e string (i'll put the part i had to learn below) and then I went home practicing alt picking but thought to myself why outside picking was easier/better than inside picking and I couldn't think how it was. Could someone explain how it could be easier?

This is the part of the song how I played it:
first time
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----D---U--D---D---U--D--
second time
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----U---D--U---D---U--D--

This is how he wanted me to play it:
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----D---U--D---U---D--U--

I understand everything about the two methods of picking but I just dont see how outside picking this is better than inside picking it.


The last example is outside picking. I'm an economy picker as well, but recently I have been practicing outside picking. My picking speed has gone up tremendously. Outside picking is cleaner sounding to me at high speeds, I think thats the difference
#22
Here's why alt picking makes sense to me. Lets say you have a 12 note run that crosses a few strings. Ok, alt pick 12 notes on one string, all wrist motion. If you've got even half way decent picking technique, that will be smooth and feel natural and unbroken. Now if you can move your hand while doing this, so the 12 notes occur on different strings, and not change the fluid wrist motion used in the one string version, then you have yourself a really nice fluid run, that can be potentially played extremely fast if necessary. I don't like econo picking, because it requires that you modify what the wrist part is doing every time you cross a string.
#24
Quote by ouchies
^ Not really.. 3 nps are incredibly fluid with eco picking


It's all opinion. This is not one of those black and white issues, like elbow spazzing vs nice tension free playing.
#25
*adds on to the thread*

economy picking vs alternate picking. get good at both to be more versatile.
#26
Quote by RCalisto

^ not needed. no lick i've seen so far needs outside picking, or makes it easier at all. and guess what lol, to me it doesn't make sense to alt pick strictly. it's just a matter of personal choice really.


How about a lick that requires "snapping" and relies on heavy dynamics (strong defined picking attack)? I don't see how you'd be able to do these kinds of things with economy picking.
#28
I think the issue here is consistency. With eco picking, you have to train for more types of wierdo situations. Frank Gambale doesn't even play a major scale the "proper" way because you need an odd number of notes on a string to proceed from one string to the next and an even number to turn around to the previous string when using eco picking.

With alternate picking, one only needs two basic exercises to become relatively proficient. Either all even or all odd notes. For example:

------------------------------------------------------------------------5--6--7--8--
----------------------------------------------------------5--6--7--8----------------
--------------------------------------------5--6--7--8------------------------------
------------------------------5--6--7--8--------------------------------------------
----------------5--6--7--8----------------------------------------------------------
--5--6--7--8------------------------------------------------------------------------

AND

----------------------------------------------------------7--9--10-----------------
----------------------------------------------7--9--10-----------------------------
-----------------------------------6--7--9-----------------------------------------
------------------------6--7--9----------------------------------------------------
-------------5--7--9---------------------------------------------------------------
--5--7--9--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The later takes care of your inside and outside picking issues because you're engaging in either alternatively.

For what it's worth, I use both pretty profusely, but to my hands, alt picking is much more controllable, consistent, and makes one string runs a lot of fun.

YMMV
-Brettski
#29
^ i've no idea what you're on about either. you don't 'need' anything to be able to play a major scale. i really don't understand you -.-

and finally, all it takes is practice, to use either picking technique properly. i feel amazing with econ picking, and i won't even practice outside picking, because the way i see it, is useless.

and with that said, i'm out of this thread
#30
Quote by RCalisto
i feel amazing with econ picking, and i won't even practice outside picking, because the way i see it, is useless.

and with that said, i'm out of this thread


Okay, but the fact is that with both outside and inside picking you have a greater control over your dynamics. Whether or not you want to believe it.
#31
Quote by jdmarsh2005
This is the part of the song how I played it:
first time
e---------------17-----------
b--17-18-20------20-18--
----D---U--D---D---U--D--


thats how i would play it, eco pickin ftw!

but when I am warming up I use strict alt picking
#32
I'm kinda different in that I don't just eco pick or alternate pick it's a mixture of the two. It kinda just depends on what's most comfortable to me on different things. I also find inside picking a lot easier than outside picking.
#33
Quote by edg
Why not just practice them all?


That's what I was thinking. It's fine to have your preference, but your teacher wants you to get good at alt picking before you make a desicion. Who knows. When you get enough practice, maybe you'll like it better. And if you still don't like it, then don't do it.
#34
Quote by LawnDwarf
*adds on to the thread*

economy picking vs alternate picking. get good at both to be more versatile.

+1 i do mostly alt pick but certain places i change into economy. During a lot of metallica solos i end up econmy picking does anyone know if hammit is a alt picker or mixes it up?
#35
Quote by RCalisto
^ i don't even know what you're talking about.


hahaha

economy ftw!!!
Quote by ILuvPillows?
Masturbate it off.
#36
Quote by RCalisto

^ not needed. no lick i've seen so far needs outside picking, or makes it easier at all. and guess what lol, to me it doesn't make sense to alt pick strictly. it's just a matter of personal choice really.


Different sound, basically. You need eco picking or outside picking depending on the sound you want to acheive. While there are examples of alternate pickers that change strings as softly as eco pickers (Mike Stern) and vice versa (Marshall Harrison, sometimes), it's still pretty much a rule that eco picking cannot deliver the dynamic top end of a shawn lane or gilbert "snap".

Otoh, neither can Gilbert play Gambale scalepeggio licks with the same ease.

As edg said, get good at both.

Or choose one, if you feel you need to for some reason.
#37
+1 for learning both, try to develop more wrist control, see which sounds better to you.
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