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#1
This article:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/08/dog_cloning

Talks about the recent cloning of pit bulls that costed 50'000$ and is becoming a commercial industry.

Personally I think that cloning is probably among one of the dumbest things we've ever done with science. As there's many places it could go that just aren't good.
Such as cloning to later kill and take healthy body parts from. Like a human farm.
And why do they need to clone dogs when they are quite good at reproducing under the proper circumstances.
This is just useless science.
However "cloning" specific things like a heart without having to first create a living being would be beneficial although not within grasp anytime soon.

Discuss.
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#3
Quote by denn0069

Such as cloning to later kill and take healthy body parts from. Like a human farm.

You wouldn't be saying that if you needed an organ.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
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#5
Quote by Ur all $h1t
You wouldn't be saying that if you needed an organ.

If it meant killing another human, clone or not, to get it from outside of their will then yes I would still be saying that. Unfortunately I was born with a conscious.
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#6
Quote by denn0069

Such as cloning to later kill and take healthy body parts from. Like a human farm.

And why do they need to clone dogs when they are quite good at reproducing under the proper circumstances.


This will never happen. That's just hysteria talking.

Because the owner wanted an identical copy of their deceased pet, not just another dog.
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#7
I wrote a blog on cloning, what most people think of as cloning is bollocks.

And growing organs is tissue engineering, not cloning, although it may involve some genetic tomfoolery to get it to work.
#8
Quote by breadstick
This will never happen. That's just hysteria talking.

Because the owner wanted an identical copy of their deceased pet, not just another dog.


Yeah, but that's like having a guitar die and buying the same model. Might look the same, might be made by the same people, with the same parts, but it's not the same guitar.
#9
Quote by denn0069
If it meant killing another human, clone or not, to get it from outside of their will then yes I would still be saying that. Unfortunately I was born with a conscious.

*Conscience
That would depend on whether the clone was sentient or not.

Anyway, from what I've read, we'd most likely clone them in other animals or on their own, not in a person who we have to allow reach adulthood or whatever.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#10
Quote by saphrax
Yeah, but that's like having a guitar die and buying the same model. Might look the same, might be made by the same people, with the same parts, but it's not the same guitar.

True, but at least it's closer to the previous guitar then a totally different guitar/different colour.

That said, I would never want a clone of my dog. Once she's gone she's gone. It was good while it lasted and I would move on.
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#11
Quote by breadstick
This will never happen. That's just hysteria talking.

Not really hysteria, more the fact that I understand lengths people will go to to make money. Hows it so hard to believe when they do it with non clones already?

I believe that, seeing as it is composed of all the same parts, clones would be "sentient". We don't have anything special we're piles of mush, no magical powder dust inside of us. And we all have thought and I believe they will still have the basic survival instincts, otherwise these cloned dogs would die even in someones care.
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#12
Quote by breadstick
True, but at least it's closer to the previous guitar then a totally different guitar/different colour.

That said, I would never want a clone of my dog. Once she's gone she's gone. It was good while it lasted and I would move on.


Exactly. The sequal is never as good as the first one.
#13
Quote by denn0069
This article:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/08/dog_cloning

Talks about the recent cloning of pit bulls that costed 50'000$ and is becoming a commercial industry.

Personally I think that cloning is probably among one of the dumbest things we've ever done with science. As there's many places it could go that just aren't good.
Such as cloning to later kill and take healthy body parts from. Like a human farm.
And why do they need to clone dogs when they are quite good at reproducing under the proper circumstances.
This is just useless science.
However "cloning" specific things like a heart without having to first create a living being would be beneficial although not within grasp anytime soon.

Discuss.


there would never be "human farms"... stem cells can be used to form anything without having to grow a whole person. Its well within grasp, now that skin stem cells have been made to behave like embryonic stem cells the ethical problem is completely gone.

I do think cloning pets is stupid, for reasons other than it just being silly. Those puppies will die young just like Dolly did. As far as I know the problem that they had with Dolly hasn't been fixed, though I don't know if any scientists have tried just adding a load of telomeres to the end of the DNA, maybe these pitbull people did.. either way, its still silly
~Domino?

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Last edited by Domino at Aug 20, 2008,
#14
it will never happen in the US, look at marijuana, they got rid of it because they felt it was bad, they will never clone humans for parts (except in the underground)
#15
Quote by denn0069
Not really hysteria, more the fact that I understand lengths people will go to to make money. Hows it so hard to believe when they do it with non clones already?
How about morals and laws?

Don't you think if a company start producing cloned body parts left right and center someone would ask where it was coming from?
#16
Quote by freedoms_stain
How about morals and laws?

Don't you think if a company start producing cloned body parts left right and center someone would ask where it was coming from?

-Blackmarket
-Off shore
-Rich dying person

Enough said.
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#17
Quote by denn0069

I believe that, seeing as it is composed of all the same parts, clones would be "sentient". We don't have anything special we're piles of mush, no magical powder dust inside of us.

I know that, but we do know the bits of our brain that contain that part of us.

Anyway it's irrelevant , we're well on our way to being able to clone organs without the person attached.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#18
Quote by freedoms_stain
How about morals and laws?

Don't you think if a company start producing cloned body parts left right and center someone would ask where it was coming from?


It would be easier and more cost effective to clone single organs than it would be to clone people.. people stop being silly and worrying about human farms!
~Domino?

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#19
Quote by denn0069
-Blackmarket
-Off shore
-Rich dying person

Enough said.
So basically only within the reach of super-rich criminals?

Yeah, I see it taking off massively!

You're basically saying nothing should be invented or discovered incase someone misuses it.
#20
Quote by freedoms_stain
So basically only within the reach of super-rich criminals?

Yeah, I see it taking off massively!

You're basically saying nothing should be invented or discovered incase someone misuses it.

Exactly, look at all the people who've died because we invented the combustion engine.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#21
Quote by Domino
It would be easier and more cost effective to clone single organs than it would be to clone people.. people stop being silly and worrying about human farms!
I'm not, I literally have a blog in my profile detailing how stupid the fear of cloning is.

And cloning organs at the moment isn't anywhere near easier since all they have the technology to do is build a sheet of cells not a whole organ and the technology to clone a whole organism does exist at this moment and time.
#22
Cloning is immoral and against god! Thou shalt be sent to hell for playing god you heathenistic fools!

>_>

<_<

"Cloning" human organs aka tissue engineering is hardly a pre cursour to human organ farms. No government in their right mind would allow such a thing to exist. There are guidelines in science that we just do not cross. No right minded person is going to clone a whole human, kill it, harvest the organs, just so someone else can live. Its un ethical.

Tissue engineering is where its at, as well as cloning stem cells! Cloning has been given a lot of bad press by people who do not understand its intricascies.

Also, the whole cloning a whole dog for $50 000 is pointless, but if they want to waste their money, let them. There is a whole world of difference between cloning fido for a loving family and cloning a whole human just to kill it for organs. The latter wont happen.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#23
Quote by freedoms_stain
I'm not, I literally have a blog in my profile detailing how stupid the fear of cloning is.

And cloning organs at the moment isn't anywhere near easier since all they have the technology to do is build a sheet of cells not a whole organ and the technology to clone a whole organism does exist at this moment and time.


growing people would take years, organs will be cloned soon enough.
~Domino?

This life's too good to last
and I'm too young to care.


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#24
Quote by freedoms_stain
So basically only within the reach of super-rich criminals?

Yeah, I see it taking off massively!

You're basically saying nothing should be invented or discovered in case someone misuses it.

Not at all,

I wasn't aware that stem cell research was going as well as it apparently is, which I now know due to this thread. And I fully support that.

And its not "super-rich criminals", its anyone dying that has the money to save their own lives. And it doesn't need to "take off" 1 tiny farm is just as morally incorrect as 10 big ones. Although if stem cells where its supposedly is then the farms probably wont happen.
But I could see people regarding clones not as people, and scientists using them as guinea pigs in experiments for things like cancer research(inject with cancer cells then try and cure with normally "insane" methods) and things like that.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against science pushing forward, and I don't have a mindset that every scientist is a mad evil scientist thats working in underground labs, I'm just not blind to the fact that there are some out there that would be willing to do immoral things to make themselves renowned(imagine finding the cure for cancer or a way to genetically enhance humans).
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ever.
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#25
Quote by Guitardude19
Cloning is immoral and against god! Thou shalt be sent to hell for playing god you heathenistic fools!

>_>

<_<

"Cloning" human organs aka tissue engineering is hardly a pre cursour to human organ farms. No government in their right mind would allow such a thing to exist. There are guidelines in science that we just do not cross. No right minded person is going to clone a whole human, kill it, harvest the organs, just so someone else can live. Its un ethical.

Yes because as the world stands there is no groups of people doing illegal things and everyone in the world is perfectly mentally healthy and stable and all have the same perspective on life as being a rainbow filled place with bunny's and butterflies.
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awesome avatar,denn0069!
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#26
Quote by denn0069
Not at all,

I wasn't aware that stem cell research was going as well as it apparently is, which I now know due to this thread. And I fully support that.

And its not "super-rich criminals", its anyone dying that has the money to save their own lives. And it doesn't need to "take off" 1 tiny farm is just as morally incorrect as 10 big ones. Although if stem cells where its supposedly is then the farms probably wont happen.
But I could see people regarding clones not as people, and scientists using them as guinea pigs in experiments for things like cancer research(inject with cancer cells then try and cure with normally "insane" methods) and things like that.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against science pushing forward, and I don't have a mindset that every scientist is a mad evil scientist that working in underground labs, I'm just not blind to the fact that there are some out there that would be willing to do immoral things to make themselves renowned(imagine finding the cure for cancer or a way to genetically enhance humans).


Corrupted scientists are shunned by the scientific community and if any laws are broken whilst they do it, they get slammed in prison where Tiny the 6ft 4 inch jail bully shows them some bum love.

The closest we would come to human clone farms is individually genetically engineered organs in the lab. Not whole humans. Ever. It would never be allowed to happen. Immoral people always get caught out. Anyway, no right minded scientist would jeapodise their career in doing this.

Quote by denn0069
Yes because as the world stands there is no groups of people doing illegal things and everyone in the world is perfectly mentally healthy and stable and all have the same perspective on life as being a rainbow filled place with bunny's and butterflies.


Or... Hear me out here...

You have no idea how the scientific process works. Anyone even attempting these ideas would be thrown out on their ass faster than you can say genetically modified tomato. No government would sanction such a violation, and even if it did happen, the backlash would be huge. Stop sensationalising.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#27
Quote by denn0069
Not at all,

I wasn't aware that stem cell research was going as well as it apparently is, which I now know due to this thread. And I fully support that.

And its not "super-rich criminals", its anyone dying that has the money to save their own lives. And it doesn't need to "take off" 1 tiny farm is just as morally incorrect as 10 big ones. Although if stem cells where its supposedly is then the farms probably wont happen.
But I could see people regarding clones not as people, and scientists using them as guinea pigs in experiments for things like cancer research(inject with cancer cells then try and cure with normally "insane" methods) and things like that.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against science pushing forward, and I don't have a mindset that every scientist is a mad evil scientist thats working in underground labs, I'm just not blind to the fact that there are some out there that would be willing to do immoral things to make themselves renowned(imagine finding the cure for cancer or a way to genetically enhance humans).


I don't think anyone would ever be ok with cloning people for organs.. people are already so against stem cell research for ethical reasons it'll never happen.
Imagine getting a clone of yourself cut open for their heart.. just weird.
~Domino?

This life's too good to last
and I'm too young to care.


Musics
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#28
Quote by Domino
growing people would take years, organs will be cloned soon enough.
Not necessarily.

We know clones age faster already and the embryo could be manipulated with growth hormones to promote faster growth.

And I think you're erring on the optomistic side for tissue engineering. We still need to crack what's going on genetically in the development of organs in order to manipulate stem cells into replicating it.

That involes a heavy amount of trial and error and examining of animal development and trying to relate it to human since we're not allowed to play with human embryos beyond a certain point.

It's a massive body of work and it's still a long way away.
#29
Quote by Guitardude19
Anyway, no right minded scientist would jeapodise their career in doing this.


Whose to say that all scientists are right minded?

I can see one or two peeps trying to clone humans for body parts just to push the boundaries of science.
#30
Quote by Guitardude19
Corrupted scientists are shunned by the scientific community and if any laws are broken whilst they do it, they get slammed in prison where Tiny the 6ft 4 inch jail bully shows them some bum love.

It wouldn't just be a one man operation. It'd be run like a poppy farm.
And if the world were as you say it is, there'd be no illegal trafficking of drugs and weapons, and kidneys and livers...
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#31
Quote by denn0069
Not at all,

I wasn't aware that stem cell research was going as well as it apparently is, which I now know due to this thread. And I fully support that.

And its not "super-rich criminals", its anyone dying that has the money to save their own lives. And it doesn't need to "take off" 1 tiny farm is just as morally incorrect as 10 big ones. Although if stem cells where its supposedly is then the farms probably wont happen.
But I could see people regarding clones not as people, and scientists using them as guinea pigs in experiments for things like cancer research(inject with cancer cells then try and cure with normally "insane" methods) and things like that.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against science pushing forward, and I don't have a mindset that every scientist is a mad evil scientist thats working in underground labs, I'm just not blind to the fact that there are some out there that would be willing to do immoral things to make themselves renowned(imagine finding the cure for cancer or a way to genetically enhance humans).
Well as Domino suggested clone farms wouldn't be saving lives, it's going to take time to actually grow a clone to a point where you can harvest anything from it.

Only the super-rich could afford to have clones grown for themselves retrospectively in the event they would need them, for anyone else it'd just be too late.

If it cost $50,000 (It would undoubtedly be more) how many people do you know who can throw that away in the event of an accident that might never happen?
#32
Quote by Guitardude19
You have no idea how the scientific process works. Anyone even attempting these ideas would be thrown out on their ass faster than you can say genetically modified tomato. No government would sanction such a violation, and even if it did happen, the backlash would be huge. Stop sensationalising.

You're foolish to honestly believe that everything done by everyone in the world is first checked by their governments then approved. Some countries don't even have fully established governments. And even countries that do can't track everyone in their country.
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ever.
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#33
Quote by saphrax
Whose to say that all scientists are right minded?

I can see one or two peeps trying to clone humans for body parts just to push the boundaries of science.


Those who do try it would be out on their ass and not allowed near a lab ever again. There are protocols and guidelines that prevent institutions of research persuing immoral and unethical procedures.

The scientific principle is based on transparency and openess, as well as truth and ethics. Violation of these would render the person jobless.

They then wouldnt be able to get hold of the equipment to continue their jaded research because companies that provide the equipment will only sell to institutions such as universities and other such companies. Even these companies would not risk it should they be levied with fines, loss of earnings due to bad press and people of moral conscience not buying from them.


Quote by denn0069
It wouldn't just be a one man operation. It'd be run like a poppy farm.
And if the world were as you say it is, there'd be no illegal trafficking of drugs and weapons, and kidneys and livers...


Try and get hold of the equipment without an institution address such as a univeristy or research facility, both of which are heavily vetted, scrutinised and transparent.

No one would sell you what you need to a residential address or location not known for scientific research.

It would be a futile effort to even try.
There are protocols and guidelines in place to stop these things happening. The scientific process is highly regarded and breaking it is judged as the worst thing you could do as a scientist.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
Last edited by Guitardude19 at Aug 20, 2008,
#34
Quote by freedoms_stain
Not necessarily.

We know clones age faster already and the embryo could be manipulated with growth hormones to promote faster growth.

And I think you're erring on the optomistic side for tissue engineering. We still need to crack what's going on genetically in the development of organs in order to manipulate stem cells into replicating it.

That involes a heavy amount of trial and error and examining of animal development and trying to relate it to human since we're not allowed to play with human embryos beyond a certain point.

It's a massive body of work and it's still a long way away.


I really don't think its that far away, and I don't think I'm being overly optimistic. Genetics is advancing much quicker than it did years ago
~Domino?

This life's too good to last
and I'm too young to care.


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#35
Quote by freedoms_stain
Well as Domino suggested clone farms wouldn't be saving lives, it's going to take time to actually grow a clone to a point where you can harvest anything from it.

Organs just need to be compatible not exact matches, so grow a diverse batch to start with then kill them.
It doesn't necessarily need to be your clone for an organ to work with your body.

But as I said earlier if stem cell is where its said to be I doubt this will happen. I thought stem cell and organ engineering were no where near close to being ready to recreate hearts and lungs and what not.

Quote by Guitardude19
The scientific principle is based on transparency and openess, as well as truth and ethics.
...
breaking it is judged as the worst thing you could do as a scientist.

Sounds a lot like priests and little boys?
Not everyone follows all the rules in the book thats the problem.
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#36
Quote by denn0069
You're foolish to honestly believe that everything done by everyone in the world is first checked by their governments then approved. Some countries don't even have fully established governments. And even countries that do can't track everyone in their country.


Its the scientific community that does its own peer reviewing etc backed up by government and independent bodies. You clearly do not understand how hard it would be to achieve what you are saying. Its a futile effort even arguing with you.

Quote by denn0069



Sounds a lot like priests and little boys?
Not everyone follows all the rules in the book thats the problem.


And those that do not are thrown out. Very quickly. They are not trusted, they lose their livelyhood. Science is a self correcting process.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#37
Quote by denn0069
Organs just need to be compatible not exact matches, so grow a diverse batch to start with then kill them.
It doesn't necessarily need to be your clone for an organ to work with your body.

The whole point of them trying to clone organs is so that transplant patients don't have to:
A) Wait ages for a compatible donor
B) Take immuno-supressant drugs for the rest of their lives


And clone just means same DNA.

I'm actually doing a report on how to make insulin producing cells from stem cells.
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#38
Quote by denn0069
It wouldn't just be a one man operation. It'd be run like a poppy farm.
And if the world were as you say it is, there'd be no illegal trafficking of drugs and weapons, and kidneys and livers...

There's quite a difference between setting up a meth lab and a scientific cloning lab.
Plus you're going to need a truckload of money and some great minds.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#39
Quote by Domino
I really don't think its that far away, and I don't think I'm being overly optimistic. Genetics is advancing much quicker than it did years ago
Certainly, but in this case there are a number of stumbling blocks in the way to progress that have to be worked around.

We're talking about human development from stem cell to organ. But we're not allowed to directly study human development from stem cell to organ, so we have to use animal models to get even the vaguest idea and then it's trial and error to fit the animal system into a human cell.

And systems where multiple genes interact such as this are the hardest to study. They're still a long way off from cracking development in organisms they're allowed to do anything they like to.

And, as far as I'm aware, reverse-differentiated stem cells are cancerous in their current iteration.
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