#1
ok the following is my understanding/confusion of modes. im only writing this becasue im a little confused on the whole thing and i want help getting everything straight so here it goes. im going to use the c aeolian/major to get my point across since i know its the easiest with no sharps or flats
ok so you have the C ionian/major (C D E F G A B C) its Ionian Minor is
A (A B C D E F G) and its diminished is B Locrian (B C D E F G A B) and i dont know what the augmented is so if someone can tell me that one. now that is C major but C minor makes it Cm (C D Eb F G G#/Ab B C) making its major
Eb (Eb F G G#/Ab B C D Eb) and i dont think i reall have to continue with this you know where im going with it. thats my basic understanding of modes ionian - locrian and i was wonder wahat im missing here. also what note does the note Bbb correspond to because i think its A# but im not sure becasue in C A# is augumented 6th but Bbb is the diminsihed 7th and its confusing me.
that what i understand and im not even sure of that 100% , the next part is chord formation now i get triads but beyond that i dont understand how your do anything passed adding the 7th and 9th (which im probally wrong about as well). ive taught myself most of this stuff using ugs lessons section. and i think for being self taught im progressing pretty well. but i thought an outside opinion of my understandning of things would help me see where im making wrong turns. so if anyone at all can tell me where to turn around and fix my mistakes it would be greatly appriciated
thanks

ps sorry if this is a wall of text but i needed to show what i knew
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Last edited by F8iscruel at Aug 20, 2008,
#2
Aeolian is identical to natural minor, you must've meant Ionian/Major.

Fix that please, that's confusing me. Then I'll read the rest.

EDIT: Also, you shouldn't refer to something as "Aeolian Minor" or "Ionian Major". Use only one term. If you're talking about something modal, use Aeolian/Ionian, and if you wanna refer to a normal major and minor, use those terms.
#3
Quote by one vision
Aeolian is identical to natural minor, you must've meant Ionian/Major.

Fix that please, that's confusing me. Then I'll read the rest.

EDIT: Also, you shouldn't refer to something as "Aeolian Minor" or "Ionian Major". Use only one term. If you're talking about something modal, use Aeolian/Ionian, and if you wanna refer to a normal major and minor, use those terms.

fixed that thanks i didnt notice on my reread. and on your edit, that is another thing i dont quite grasp, the difference between those two i had discussion with someone and it came up but i never understood what he meant
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#4
On my edit I simply meant that a song can be Minor or Major, or in the Ionian Mode or Aeolian Mode. Keep in mind that major and minor are keys, and Ionian and Aeolian are modes. It's probably confusing, since they're the exact same scale, but the musical content and the way it's used is slightly different.
#5
Is your problem that you see that C aeolian is the same as Eb ionian? if so, the difference is that if you start on C playing those notes, it's a aeolian scale, but if you start on Eb, it's ionian. Similarly, if you start on F, it's dorian, G phrygian, Ab lydian, Bb mixolydian, and D locrian.

and Bbb is A, since A is 2 half-steps down from B
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Yay fibonacci!
#6
This link should help, if you haven't already read it. Taught me everything I needed to know. It's very step-by-step. The key thing that you have to remember is that a given mode has nothing to do with it's parent scale. Treat it as an individual scale, just as you would the major scale.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/the_basics/modes_ii.html
#7
Quote by capslockisnton
Is your problem that you see that C aeolian is the same as Eb ionian? if so, the difference is that if you start on C playing those notes, it's a aeolian scale, but if you start on Eb, it's ionian. Similarly, if you start on F, it's dorian, G phrygian, Ab lydian, Bb mixolydian, and D locrian.

and Bbb is A, since A is 2 half-steps down from B

not really i know that if your using C aeolian you staert with C aeolian an can move do the fret borad to the others. i knew that i as just stating (probally confusingly) that i knew that C aeolian and C ionian were different and had different notes.
and im unsure of how Bbb can be A if A# is in between them
Quote by one vision
This link should help, if you haven't already read it. Taught me everything I needed to know. It's very step-by-step. The key thing that you have to remember is that a given mode has nothing to do with it's parent scale. Treat it as an individual scale, just as you would the major scale.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/the_basics/modes_ii.html


thank you i am book marking that ive been using the one in the begginers section but i think this one will help me more since i know the basics (to a degree)
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#9
Quote by one vision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-DbaaI4wc

Watch this 3 part series. It's good stuff.

i cant learn stuff visually i learn better when i have the words written down. altough thank you for trying to hhelp me this much
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every time I see your username I press F8 out of curiosity then I have to give myself a big ol' facepalm


Quote by ouch
What the hell? F8 doesn't do anything interesting This toy is lame


Quote by TheReverend724
I can have a beer later, I need to level Charmeleon NOW!
#10
Quote by F8iscruel

and im unsure of how Bbb can be A if A# is in between them


Well i'm assuming by bb you mean a double-flat, so Bbb is Bb flat, Bb is enharmonic to A# so Bb flat = A# flat, which is just A

sorry if i'm being confusing
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--
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Yay fibonacci!
#11
Quote by F8iscruel
i cant learn stuff visually i learn better when i have the words written down. altough thank you for trying to hhelp me this much

Lol, no problem. And he pretty much improvises over all the modes and gives you a feel for the way they sound. Maybe watch it when you have this stuff down cold, it'll give you a better idea.

#12
Quote by capslockisnton
Well i'm assuming by bb you mean a double-flat, so Bbb is Bb flat, Bb is enharmonic to A# so Bb flat = A# flat, which is just A

sorry if i'm being confusing

actually i understood it after reading thouroghly. and ive written it off of this
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/for_beginners/learning_music_theory_the_beginning.html
somewhere in there is the chart the guy wrote its toward the top
and what it says is the diminished 7th is Bbb which confuses me in general but he says augumented 6th is A# and major sixth is A. and the minor 7th is Bb . so its really just the Bbb thats mixing me up. but i understand what you mean
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#13
I guess you mean this...
Quote by Lesson
Interval | Name | Note.(In C)
-----------------------------------------------

b6 | Minor Sixth | Ab
6 | Major Sixth | A
#6 | Augmented Sixth | A#
bb7 | Diminished Seventh | Bbb
b7 | Minor Seventh | Bb
7 | Major Seventh | B

------------------------------------------------

Here is a picture to show how intervals change when sharped or flatted.
(Invalid img)
Raising a major interval one semitone creates an augmented interval. Lowering it one semitone creates a minor interval.
Lowering a minor interval by one semitone creates a diminished interval. Note that this is the same as lowering a major interval by two semitones.

A perfect interval can be raised one semitone to create an augmented interval or lowered by a semitone to create a diminished interval.

This is why in the key of C the major 7 is B. Lowering it one semitone is a minor 7 (Bb). Lowering it one more semitone is a diminished 7 (Bbb). This is enharmonic (same sound different spelling) as the major sixth interval (A). Why?? You ask. Because sometimes we need to lower a minor interval.
For Example the Natural Minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 right. It contains a minor sixth and minor seventh.
If we lower the 7th by one semitone we have a minor sixth and a diminished seventh. 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 bb7. It is a diminished seventh and not a major sixth because we have altered the minor seventh by lowering it one semitone. We did NOT alter the minor sixth by raising it a semitone.

If however we were to take the Natural Minor scale 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 and raised the sixth one semitone we would have a major sixth. 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7.

Note that in both cases (diminished 7 and major 6) we will be playing a note that sounds like an A if we were in the key of C. However in one instance it is a Bbb and in the other it is an A despite the fact they sound the same.

One reason for this is to do with clarity of understanding (though it may seem confusing now). Calling it A or a major sixth will in most cases imply there is some other kind of seventh present in the scale and that there is most likely no other A or sixth type of interval present. Similarly calling it Bbb or diminished 7 will often imply there is some other kind of A or sixth degree present but no other kind of B or 7.

A second reason is to do with chord construction. When constructing a seventh chord using the 1 as the root note for the chord we will use scale degrees 1 3 5 7. If we have named our notes correctly we will have no problem constructing the right kind of seventh chord for our scale because we will know if the 7th degree is bb7, b7, or 7.

EDIT: This is also the reason you will sometimes see B#, E#, Cb or Fb used in certain places.
EDIT 2: Anyone know how I can imbed an image without attaching it and having it show up twice?
Attachments:
Intervals.gif
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Aug 20, 2008,
#14
WARNING: Wall of Text
Quote by F8iscruel

ok so you have the C ionian/major (C D E F G A B C) its Ionian Minor is
A (A B C D E F G) and its diminished is B Locrian (B C D E F G A B) and i dont know what the augmented is so if someone can tell me that one. now that is C major but C minor makes it Cm (C D Eb F G G#/Ab B C) making its major
Eb (Eb F G G#/Ab B C D Eb) and i dont think i reall have to continue with this you know where im going with it. thats my basic understanding of modes ionian - locrian and i was wonder wahat im missing here.

It looks like you have some kind of grasp on relative modes. If that is your understanding in full you might be missing a whole lot. Here's everything you need to know to get started in modes.

To begin with think of the major scale as a step pattern.
W W H W W W H. I am guessing you have this down already and understand what I am saying here perfectly.

Now modes are simply a matter of using the same step pattern but using a different starting place (a different root). So the step pattern above is the 1st mode of the Major Scale step pattern and is called Ionian.

If we start at the second place along the same pattern we get the second mode (Dorian) which will look like this:
W H W W W H W Compare this to the original Ionian step pattern and make sure you understand how I got this Dorian mode.

Starting at the 3rd place in the pattern you get
H W W W H W W. This is the third mode Phrygian.

Write down the step patterns for all the modes.
In order they are called Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian. There are seven in total.

It is common to get caught up on relative modes (i.e. comparing C Ionian A Aeolian a relative mode uses the same notes). But it is more important to first concentrate on how changing the step pattern affects the intervals in relation to the root note.

if W W H W W W H is our Ionian Mode our notes will be 1W2W3H4W5W6W7H8. All intervals are major or perfect. You will notice there is a half step between the third and fourth degree of the scale and between the seventh degree and octave.

Now if we look at our Dorian Mode = W H W W W H W
The notes are 1W2Hb3W4W5W6Hb7W8
Notice how the half step is now between the 2nd and 3rd degrees and between the sixth and seventh degrees. This has caused the 3rd and 7th degrees to be lowered. We write this as 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. This is because we always compare scale degrees to the major scale (Ionian mode) and the Dorian has the same notes as the Ionian Mode but with a b3 and b7.

The Phrygian Mode = H W W W H W W
The notes are 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7.
You will see this retains the b6 and b3 of the Dorian Mode but because the half steps have shifted left again the 2 and 6 are now also flatted creating minor 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th intervals.

You might start to notice a pattern here...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
the next item in this pattern is b1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7. However what we call our root note is not important since the point of writing scales in this way is to measure the distance between the root and each scale degree. Hence we can keep the same interval structure between the notes b1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 by writing it as 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7. This is actually easier to understand since if our root note is C it is C and not Cb. I only wrote it the first way to show how the pattern works...and if we carry on...

Now lets see the last thing we flatted was the 5 and the 1. So for the next mode we will have to flat the 4 and the 7.
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Then we flat the 6 and the 3
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (look familiar??)
and then we flat the 5 and 2
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 (Locrian)
and then we flat the 4 and 1
b1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 - hey wait there's a b1 lets rewrite this keeping the same interval structure between the notes = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 We are back to the start.

So here they are again without all the writing:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Ionian
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 Dorian
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Phrygian
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 Lydian
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 Mixolydian
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Aeolian
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 Locrian

If you look at the intervals you will notice similarities.
Three of them have perfect fifth and major third intervals (This results in the tonic triad being major in quality). These are considered Major Modes.

Three of them have perfect fifth and minor third intervals (This results in the tonic triad being minor in quality. These are considered the minor Modes.

The Locrian has a diminished fifth and minor third intervals. (This results in the tonic triad being diminished in quality). This is the diminished mode.

There is no Augmented Mode.

However if we group these off into Major Minor and Diminished groups you will notice there is only a slight difference between modes of the same quality:
Major Modes
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = Ionian
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 = Lydian
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 = Mixolydian
You can see the difference between Lydian and Ionian is the #4 in the Lydian. This differentiating note is often referred to as the Modal Note. The Modal note of the Mixolydian is the b7 since it is this note that makes it different than the Ionian mode.

Minor Modes
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 = Aeolian
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 = Dorian
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 = Phrygian
The Aeolian is the minor mode to which the other minor modes are compared. See if you can work out the modal note of the Dorian and Phrygian Modes.

Diminished Mode
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 = Locrian modal note of the Locrian mode is the b5 since it is the only mode to have a b5 and consequently is a either a bit of a lone wolf or just a big ol' reject!

The best way to get to know modes is to learn the relationship between Parallel Modes.
Parallel Modes are modes that use the same root.
So C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, C Aeolian, and C Locrian are all parallel modes. They all use the same root note, they all start on C.
C Ionian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = C D E F G A B C
C Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 = C D Eb F G A Bb C
Learning how to construct each of these and how each of them sound is important.

A Relative Modal relationship is when two modes use the same notes.
So C Ionian D Dorian E Phrygian F Lydian G Mixolydian A Aeolian B Locrian are examples of relative modes, they use the same notes starting on a different place.
C Ionian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = C D E F G A B C
D Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 = D E F G A B C D
This is an important relationship to be aware of and understand. Knowing how to find the "Parent Scale" of a given mode is very handy. The problem with relative modes is that people think it is a shortcut to learning modes. They think if they learn the Relative Modes for each major scale they will know modes. Unfortunately all they really end up knowing is the major scale or minor scale. You really need to take the time to understand the differences between the parallel modes.

There are three basic ways to use Modes.
1. As a source of melodic ideas over specific individual chords in a progression. For this to work you need the chord to last long enough to fully develop a melodic idea. You will also need to have a good knowledge of modes and chord construction and which modes will work over what chords.
2. As a source of melodic ideas over modal chord progressions. This is where a mode is used to create melodies over a harmony built from the same mode.
3. As altered scales. Certain chord progressions will create an expectation for certain modes or scales to be used. Flavour can be added by using a different mode than the one expected. This has to be done with care though as if done wrong it will bomb.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 7, 2008,
#15
wow, this is a lot of useful stuff thanks you guys im glad i made a thread this is really going ot help me get everything straight. thanks
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#16
I think a big problem some people have when learning modes, is that C Ionian (C D E F G A B C) does not become Dorian as "D E F G A B C D." You take the pattern of intervals there, being WHWWWHW, and apply that to C. Thusly, C Dorian is "C D Eb F G A Bb C"