#1
I'm reading a book, and it says the following:

"Finally, it should be noticed that in the next to the last bar, there must be a major sixth if the cantus firmus is in the lower part; and a minor if it is in the upper part."

I know cantus firmus means melody, and I understand the major/minor sixth part, but what does it mean if the melody is in the lower part, or if it's in the higher part?
#2
maybe like in a fugue? different orchestra sections interchanging the melodies they play?
#3
I think it means if the counterpoint melody is in the "higher part" it is in a higher register than the cantus firmus. if it is in a lower register than the cantus firmus than it is described as the "lower part".
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Aug 25, 2008,
#4
Quote by 20Tigers
I think it means if the counterpoint melody is in the "higher part" it is in a higher register than the cantus firmus. if it is in a lower register than the cantus firmus than it is described as the "lower part".
This

Just wondering, which species is that rule in?
#6
Quote by VIRUSDETECTED
I believe first.
Whoa, really? Thats weird. Which treatise are you reading? I'm reading the one thats free on gutenberg library, it says you need to use a leading tone or a super-tonic in the next to last bar though.

Anyway, now that Virus's question has been answered, this thread is now about general counterpoint.
#7
Quote by demonofthenight
Whoa, really? Thats weird. Which treatise are you reading? I'm reading the one thats free on gutenberg library, it says you need to use a leading tone or a super-tonic in the next to last bar though.

Anyway, now that Virus's question has been answered, this thread is now about general counterpoint.


Well, I'm reading The Study of Counterpoint (A translation of Gradus Ad Parnassum). It may or may not be a first species rule, because all it says is the chapter right now. It may just be a general rule, because I don't think I've delved into the species sections of it yet.
#8
Quote by VIRUSDETECTED
Well, I'm reading The Study of Counterpoint (A translation of Gradus Ad Parnassum). It may or may not be a first species rule, because all it says is the chapter right now. It may just be a general rule, because I don't think I've delved into the species sections of it yet.
I've just looked through what I have about fuxs counterpoint treatise (I've only been able to find vague notes). It's a sort of weird rule (actually, theres alot of rules that make you lol wut).

If anyone wants a link to a free (and legal) treatises (fancy name for lessons), I'll look for the two I have.
#11
Is the original quote
"Finally, it should be noticed that in the next to the last bar, there must be a major sixth if the cantus firmus is in the lower part; and a minor if it is in the upper part."

Word for word? Obviously there is some missing.

But as far as I understand the Cantus Firmus ends with the final and the final is approached by a step wise motion from above. (The last two notes are always 2-1)

The line of counterpoint must end on the final either in unison or an octave from the Cantus Firmus. The final in the line of counterpoint is always approached from the leading tone. (The last two notes are always 7-8)

As a result when the Cantus Firmus and Counterpoint are played together the last notes will always form an octave or a unison.
When the Counterpoint is in the upper register the last two intervals will be a sixth followed by an octave.

When the Counterpoint is in the lower register the last two intervals will be a third then unison or tenth then octave.

From the fragment of text the TS provided I thought it was saying something like this. But a few things throw me off - second to last "bar", "major sixth", minor
Maybe there is some example that the text is explaining. But I thought the quality of the second to last interval would depend on what mode is being used. And to say the second to last bar is confusing to me also. I just assume there's more to it.
I'd be interested in the Treatise link you're talking about.
Heres a link I have to a site about Counterpoint Species Counterpoint
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Aug 26, 2008,
#12
Quote by demonofthenight
I've just looked through what I have about fuxs counterpoint treatise (I've only been able to find vague notes). It's a sort of weird rule (actually, theres alot of rules that make you lol wut).

If anyone wants a link to a free (and legal) treatises (fancy name for lessons), I'll look for the two I have.


Yeah me too please,

Thankyou.
#13
Wow, here I was thinking counterpoint was for nerds. Oh well, here you go:
http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&id=NcYPAAAAYAAJ&dq=counterpoint+treatise&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Ngvt8Jomlk&sig=5iDhqjkl9ZSXGPDiUr8PcI-j-GU&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result
This ones confusing as hell. Theres a paragraph on each rule. I actually havent read it yet, but I plan to after I finish this one:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16342
This ones my favourite. The rules are a little vague and over simplified (if you have any problems, just ask them here), but I love the example (easy to read, straightforward). It's missing some rules, but adds information about Fuxs (the guy that wrote the first counterpoint treatise) rules. Like Parrallel fifths are now okay, but only if they contain the 1st degree (and occasionally the fifth) note from the scale/mode your using.

Just remember that alot of these rules are in place to make polyphonic music singable. I'm not exactly sure which ones, but some of the rules can be ignored for completely instrumental music.

Also, read this before starting the treatises: www.thereelscore.com/PortfolioStuff/PDFFiles/CounterPointFux.pdf
It points out what contrary, oblique and parrallel movements are. Also remember that "covered" movements can sometimes mean parrallel. Dont use it as a conclusive list of the rules though, its missing heaps of them.

As a final note, I know you like to think of music as ruleless, anarchic and free, but counterpoint (the way its taught) isnt. These treatises just list things that sound good and things that sound bad. If you disagree with any of the rules, than play the examples on your guitar and decide for yourself.
#14
that's a whole fuxload of pages.
133 pages on the first book. dude, that's insane
is there really so much theory behind counterpoint? or is the guy just saying the same, over and over again?
#15
Quote by RCalisto
that's a whole fuxload of pages.
133 pages on the first book. dude, that's insane
is there really so much theory behind counterpoint? or is the guy just saying the same, over and over again?
Start Here - Introduction to species counterpoint
Si
#16
Quote by RCalisto
that's a whole fuxload of pages.
133 pages on the first book. dude, that's insane
is there really so much theory behind counterpoint? or is the guy just saying the same, over and over again?
I smilled for an instant at the irony.

Each specie is a subject on its own, with heaps of rules. Than theres 3 and 4 part counterpoint and different species against species other than the first specie.