#1
I took this very interesting thread from the Electric Guitar Harmony Central Forum

"The latest Guitarist carries an interesting piece concerning a music student in Brighton who conducted an informal survey by recording two versions of three pieces: an SRV-style blues through a Twin, a Brian May-ish rock thing through an AC30 and a Santana-esque exercise through a Mesa/Boogie Recto, and duplicates of each using GuitarRig software. He then played them to two control groups: a bunch of undergrad music students, and a group of pro guitarists. Results were interesting.

With the Twin, 60% of the undergrads and 90% of the guitarists got it right.

With the AC30, 50% of the undergrads and 70% of the guitarists scored.

With the Mesa, 48% of undergrads and -- wait for it -- only 40% of the guitarists hit the target.

His conclusion, and the author's: the cleaner the tone, the wider the gap between Real Thing and sim. The more cranked/satchurated/distorted the tone -- the less cost-effective the distinction becomes."

What's your opinion about it?.
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#2
very interesting...
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#4
yeah I would tend to agree with that. Solid state cleans are nothing compared to tube, and you can definitely hear the lack of character in solid state over tubes.
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#5
Mesa Boogie Rectos are tube amps.
Let's go back to five billion bpm and see how good i am.
#6
I'd rather have an amp that I'm happy with the sound of.

I use Guitar Rig sometimes and it doesn't even compare to the sound of my TT in the room.

However when you record guitars, tiny mic movements change change the sound hugely.
#7
Quote by Attack
Mesa Boogie Rectos are tube amps.

Good work.
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#8
well to our own ear a distorted tone is hard to pick apart cause you can change the tone soo much as for the clean you can tell cause of the treble and bass response.
#9
If your really interested I have 9 clips in my profile from a tube amp, a peavey transtube and a moddeler. They are not the best clips in the world but it is not that easy to tell them apart.
#11
K coo

srsly tho, a spider III sound better than my valve combo for SUPER quiet gain

past 2 it'd smoke it though
Get off this damn forum and play your damn guitar.
#12
But if you have an actual amp and a modeling software RIGHT NEXT TO you, you'd hear a MASSIVE difference between the two.
When recorded and listening to the recording, the difference has almost gone.
So for recording, use whatever.
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#13
Quote by vodoochile
yeah I would tend to agree with that. Solid state cleans are nothing compared to tube, and you can definitely hear the lack of character in solid state over tubes.

This doesn't really tell you much about solid state vs tube cleans, more like tube vs. modeling. Lot's of players choose solid states over tube amps for cleans anyway

I would have been curious to see something like a Jazz Chorus vs modeler tested as well.


And I wonder how diverse the group of pro guitarists was. Like if the group tended toward classic rock and vintage tones then they should do a better job discerning the tones that they know best.
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#14
playing dynamics
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
#15
Quote by El Cumanés
I took this very interesting thread from the Electric Guitar Harmony Central Forum

"The latest Guitarist carries an interesting piece concerning a music student in Brighton who conducted an informal survey by recording two versions of three pieces: an SRV-style blues through a Twin, a Brian May-ish rock thing through an AC30 and a Santana-esque exercise through a Mesa/Boogie Recto, and duplicates of each using GuitarRig software. He then played them to two control groups: a bunch of undergrad music students, and a group of pro guitarists. Results were interesting.

With the Twin, 60% of the undergrads and 90% of the guitarists got it right.

With the AC30, 50% of the undergrads and 70% of the guitarists scored.

With the Mesa, 48% of undergrads and -- wait for it -- only 40% of the guitarists hit the target.

His conclusion, and the author's: the cleaner the tone, the wider the gap between Real Thing and sim. The more cranked/satchurated/distorted the tone -- the less cost-effective the distinction becomes."

What's your opinion about it?.


The ironic part? Both the AC30 and Twin models in GR3 is among the best ones I have ever heard!

I would say that the hardest sound to capture is that of a cranked tube amp really. Preamp gain is easy, but pwoeramp gain is hard!
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#16
Quote by TehFluffy
Good work.

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#17
Wow I'm really surprised!! I've always liked Guitar Rig 3s clean sounds but its gain modes sounded like noisy garbage to me, so the fact the guitarists in the survey spotted the cleans as modelled but not the distortion blows my mind.
#18
The last test isn't worth anything IMO. Like someone said earlier, santana used a MK1 not a recto. You could probably get a better santana tone out of GR than a recto.
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#19
See, the funny part is.
9/10 of the retards in here have never played through guitar rig.
It sounds VERY REALISTIC.
The AC30 sim is spot on guys.
I'm not even kidding.

Guitar rig sounds miles better than any solid state amp i've ever played.
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#20
Quote by kool98769
See, the funny part is.
9/10 of the retards in here have never played through guitar rig.
It sounds VERY REALISTIC.
The AC30 sim is spot on guys.
I'm not even kidding.

Guitar rig sounds miles better than any solid state amp i've ever played.


Exactly! As you know I was the one who got you into it. Really the two best amps in it is the Twin simulation and the AC30 simulation. Actually Guitar Rig is FAR beyond most modeling out there. Way ahead of Amplitube too!
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#21
Quote by Ausgeno
Wow I'm really surprised!! I've always liked Guitar Rig 3s clean sounds but its gain modes sounded like noisy garbage to me, so the fact the guitarists in the survey spotted the cleans as modelled but not the distortion blows my mind.

Perhaps the gain modes you heard sounded like crap.
Are you guys going to force me to upload clips of GR3?
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#22
wow. recto. i wouldnt think that. that's funny. but then again.. almost half of them got it right. why dont they just say it like that. it sounds different like they got payed off or something
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#23
Quote by kool98769
Perhaps the gain modes you heard sounded like crap.
Are you guys going to force me to upload clips of GR3?


please?
Originally posted by primusfan
When you crank up the gain to 10 and switch to the lead channel, it actually sounds like you are unjustifiably bombing an innocent foreign land.


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#24
Quote by El Cumanés
I took this very interesting thread from the Electric Guitar Harmony Central Forum

"The latest Guitarist carries an interesting piece concerning a music student in Brighton who conducted an informal survey by recording two versions of three pieces: an SRV-style blues through a Twin, a Brian May-ish rock thing through an AC30 and a Santana-esque exercise through a Mesa/Boogie Recto, and duplicates of each using GuitarRig software. He then played them to two control groups: a bunch of undergrad music students, and a group of pro guitarists. Results were interesting.

With the Twin, 60% of the undergrads and 90% of the guitarists got it right.

With the AC30, 50% of the undergrads and 70% of the guitarists scored.

With the Mesa, 48% of undergrads and -- wait for it -- only 40% of the guitarists hit the target.

His conclusion, and the author's: the cleaner the tone, the wider the gap between Real Thing and sim. The more cranked/satchurated/distorted the tone -- the less cost-effective the distinction becomes."

What's your opinion about it?.

Without knowing anything about his procedures (to check for experimenter bias, etc.), his sampling method (what kinds of guitarists, etc.), and his sample size, this "informal survey" is pretty much worthless. The only reason I buy it is because it simply confirms what I would likely believe anyway. If the results had been anything controversial or groundbreaking, I--and many others, I'm sure--would be calling bull****.

(Especially the "shocking" 48% of undergrads getting it right compared to only 40% of guitarists. While this could possibly point to some widespread bias on the part of guitarists, it is more likely caused by a small sample size giving results that don't fit with the real trend.)
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#25
This really isn't modeling vs the real thing either. It's Guitar rig software vs the real thing. And there are alot of variables. I would imagine that a different sound card could have altered the results.
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#27
Quote by kool98769
Perhaps the gain modes you heard sounded like crap.


I tried all the amp models that came with the GR3 Combos I got with my AK1 soundcard, but I couldn't get a really high-gain sound which wasn't fizzy and didn't have loads of background noise. Amplitube was way better to my ears but thats just personal preference of course.

I talked about it more in this thread:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=937474
#28
^Yeah but that's a high gain tone. The Uberschall model is a great high gain amp in GR3.
Quote by stratman_13
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#29
Quote by Ausgeno
I tried all the amp models that came with the GR3 Combos I got with my AK1 soundcard, but I couldn't get a really high-gain sound which wasn't fizzy and didn't have loads of background noise. Amplitube was way better to my ears but thats just personal preference of course.

I talked about it more in this thread:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=937474

Dude.
That's the problem right there.
Cabs, excluding the actual amp sim are EXTREMELY important to your sound.
As of now, i have configured several cab combos for different things. ie, marshall, mesa, fender, and even an AC30 combo speaker thing.
I'm uploaded a quick clip. I'm going to do a bunch more, but right now i'm having some issues.
Hopefully ill put the rest up by tomorrow.


OH, and there is built in noise reduction, first on the input, just click the button that says "NR".
And then there is an actual noise reduction module. The noise gate module sucks though. Thats why you must use "noise reduction".
Works wonderfully.
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#30
Quote by kool98769
See, the funny part is.
9/10 of the retards in here have never played through guitar rig.
It sounds VERY REALISTIC.
The AC30 sim is spot on guys.
I'm not even kidding.

Guitar rig sounds miles better than any solid state amp i've ever played.


i haven't played through it. looks like i need to, if both you and gabe think it's good.

does it feel like a valve amp, though? i don't play through a valve amp just for the tone, it's for the feel as well. that normally explains why you can fool someone in a recording, but it's much harder to fool them if you let them plug into the two options...
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#31
Quote by Dave_Mc
i haven't played through it. looks like i need to, if both you and gabe think it's good.

does it feel like a valve amp, though? i don't play through a valve amp just for the tone, it's for the feel as well. that normally explains why you can fool someone in a recording, but it's much harder to fool them if you let them plug into the two options...

Yeah mon, that's it's downfall.
It can pretty much get that tone, but it can't replicate those tiny little dynamics that a cranked tube amp produces. you know, how a tube amp picks up on those tiny little nunuances in your playing, and fret noise doesn't come out as well.
My only complain is that the plexi models SUCKS.
The Bassman model sounds like, 10x better.

It doesn't replace tube amps, but comes damn close, and cannot be beat for silent playing, or if you dont have a good mic.
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#32
^Or for quick recording. For an example if I get the idea for a song, I can just plug the guitar straight into the computer!
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#33
Quote by kool98769
Yeah mon, that's it's downfall.
It can pretty much get that tone, but it can't replicate those tiny little dynamics that a cranked tube amp produces. you know, how a tube amp picks up on those tiny little nunuances in your playing, and fret noise doesn't come out as well.
My only complain is that the plexi models SUCKS.
The Bassman model sounds like, 10x better.

It doesn't replace tube amps, but comes damn close, and cannot be beat for silent playing, or if you dont have a good mic.



thanks! sounds pretty cool... i haven't really messed with computer recording, though.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#34
clip up, more to come...


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Boss BF-2 Flanger
BBE Sonic Maximizer
Last edited by kool98769 at Aug 27, 2008,
#35
I'm interested in GR3. Sounds like it would be a fun device for me to use in my dorm. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's the best sounding modeler though.

The HD-147 sounds quite a bit better than A LOT of tube amps I've used.
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#36
Quote by MESAexplorer
I'm interested in GR3. Sounds like it would be a fun device for me to use in my dorm. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's the best sounding modeler though.

The HD-147 sounds quite a bit better than A LOT of tube amps I've used.

well of course! lol

It's definitely the best modeling software. I expect the HD-147 and vettas are better than guitar rig.
But yes, it would be great to use in your dorm.
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#38
^Me too. However I'm also an avid user of GR3. Actually I was the guy that introduced kool98769 to it. I if anybody knows how it is. And sure doesn't feel like a tube amp, but the sound is great. For silent playing and recording then it's awesome!
Quote by stratman_13
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#39
Quote by Gabel
^Me too. However I'm also an avid user of GR3. Actually I was the guy that introduced kool98769 to it. I if anybody knows how it is. And sure doesn't feel like a tube amp, but the sound is great. For silent playing and recording then it's awesome!

True that man. I played my traynor on tuesday for the first time in about 2 weeks and it reminded me of why i took a break from playing it in the first place- it's too goddamn loud. lol
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#40
Looks like I need to give GR3 a blast too then. I'm leaving for Korea in 2 weeks, so I need some silent playing thing when I'm there, this seems ideal.
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