#1
im looking for a good scale to use over a Emaj7 to Dmaj7 jam. its a very happy trippy sounding section. more or less a flashback inducing jam.
#2
"section"? you could just use the same scale in the entire song, or jam.
but for a happy sound, ionian would be the way to go
#3
No one scale. Choose one to be sort of a root and use Major over that, then maybe lydian over the other.
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#5
Quote by RCalisto
"section"? you could just use the same scale in the entire song, or jam.
but for a happy sound, ionian would be the way to go



dosnt sound anything like it, but kinda how dazed and confused has that "Section" in the middle where you kinda get lost for a while is the best way to describe it.


and i'll mess around with those scales you all suggested and see what happens.
#6
ehh...I consider ionian not as good for this situation as Lydian would be, especially since this is really modal. Lydian, because of that sharp 4, gives you a more bright, more happy tone. Ionian, due to the lack of that, will sound boring and even "more dissonant" than Lydian. See like, for instance, maj7#11 is a cool chord, and that #11 is the tritone. By using the lydian scale, you include that awesome note into the fray.
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#7
Quote by Dr. No
Mixolydian


That's the one major mode that wouldn't work.

TS: That progression isn't really diatonic. It doesn't resolve in the typical sense, but it seems to center around E, though the voicings you choose will probably affect this. I think you're just going to have to be really careful about your note choice on this one. The way I'd probably approach it is: Look at it as some sort of strange, incomplete cadence in A major. I'd base my playing in the A major scale, either raising the fourth, or eliminating it entirely over the Emaj7 chord (if you think of Emaj7 as the V chord in a major key, the maj7 is a #4 in relation to the root. You could think of it as switching to A lydian over Emaj7)
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#8
Archeo...your reasoning for why lydian is correct isnt correct though. You would never base a maj7 chord as a V chord, because that doesnt happen diatonically-- V chords are always dominant using conventional western harmony. And no, there is no such thing as a dominant going to a subdominant as an incomplete cadence. All cadences involve going to the tonic or dominant (and dont say deceptive is different, because in that case, the functionality of the minor vi chord is of a tonic, as it is similar to say that in a ii-V-I progression, the ii has a subdominant functionality and not a supertonic function.)

edit: since this is a two chord vamp, TS, you might wanna just do E Lydian and D Lydian. Try and be motivic in your lines/phrases and pay attention to rests as well as notes. If you fill the sonic space with random playing, it wont be able to breathe and you wont be profound.
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Last edited by thepagesaretorn at Aug 27, 2008,
#9
V chords are always dominant using conventional western harmony.


Only when dealing with diatonic scales. Even then, it's not terribly uncommon to alter the dominant chord or replace it entirely. Minor v chords in a minor key aren't unheard of either, though A V chord is far more common.

Stop trying to apply classical conventions outside of classical music.

And no, there is no such thing as a dominant going to a subdominant as an incomplete cadence. All cadences involve going to the tonic or dominant


Anyone with the cognitive ability above that of a household appliance could see that I chose the word "cadence" for lack of a better term. It is entirely possible to imply a tonal center without actually playing the tonic. The above progression, even without playing an A major chord, resolve far more soundly to A than it does to E or G.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Aug 27, 2008,
#10
yeah its centered around E for sure. i'll try the A scales, makes sense, i use Amaj7 and Bmaj7 in another part of the song (IV V, i think, not great on theory, but i stumble through it and find sounds i like) and it fits really well, i dont know why ive been stuck in E.

so i'll see how the E and A lydian scales sound.

side note, what would a Emaj7#11 look like? i use this Emaj7(god i hope its a maj7 haha):

7
9
8
9
7
x
#11
Quote by thepagesaretorn

edit: since this is a two chord vamp, TS, you might wanna just do E Lydian and D Lydian. Try and be motivic in your lines/phrases and pay attention to rests as well as notes. If you fill the sonic space with random playing, it wont be able to breathe and you wont be profound.



oh i will, its already got a nice phaser and delay on it, my fav part of it so far is a double picked each note of the Emaj7 going down then back up the chord then to the Dmaj7, gives it a very aquatic sound, almost like zoras domain, zelda reference

im just tryin to have a little "solo" thats not really a solo as much as a transition part into somehting else i got going on. ive got a few ideas in my head but im hoping one of these scales completes the... puzzle so to say.
#12
Quote by Archeo Avis
Anyone with the cognitive ability above that of a household appliance could see that I chose the word "cadence" for lack of a better term. It is entirely possible to imply a tonal center without actually playing the tonic. The above progression, even without playing an A major chord, resolve far more soundly to A than it does to E or G.


Anyone with a musical knowledge above that of a household appliance wouldn't have used the word cadence. Cadence means the ending of a musical phrase.

Also, if you're playing chords like that in a vamp form and not in an actual literal progression, why would you ever need to resolve it when you're just jamming? the reason why Lydian was a good idea is because, truly, the vamp is modal. If you ever wanted to finish it, sure you can make a run back into A Maj, but realize that that maj7 interval in the Emaj7 chord will HORRENDOUSLY clash with an A Major run; it's sorta a no-no to play maj+min 7ths together, and with all the consonant scales we've been talking about, that's not a good "outside" note to land on.

Listen to some modal jazz and hear how it works. "So What" is a good tune for things like these (it uses minor chords instead of major, but same deal since it's only two chords anyway). Miles Davis' recording is pretty sweet.
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#13
Quote by chris024
yeah its centered around E for sure. i'll try the A scales, makes sense, i use Amaj7 and Bmaj7 in another part of the song (IV V, i think, not great on theory, but i stumble through it and find sounds i like) and it fits really well, i dont know why ive been stuck in E.

so i'll see how the E and A lydian scales sound.

side note, what would a Emaj7#11 look like? i use this Emaj7(god i hope its a maj7 haha):

7
9
8
9
7
x


you're playing an Emaj7 chord on the middle four strings, but the high E's got a B (which is the 5th that's already being played in the D string). u need to somehow get an A# in there, and there's tons of voicings for that. (all-guitar-chords.com really helps if you need help)

If i were to recommend a voicing for a maj7#11 chord, go like this:

6
9
8
9
7
x
(use a curved barre, which shouldnt be hard since there's only two notes you have to land with your index)
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#14
^where's the minor 7th occur? to your post above the last one
Last edited by farcry at Aug 27, 2008,
#15
Quote by farcry
^where's the minor 7th occur?


In So What? It uses a Dmin7 vamp for 16 measures straight, before going 8 measures in Ebmin7 and then back to Dmin7 for another 8 measures.
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#16
Quote by thepagesaretorn
In So What? It uses a Dmin7 vamp for 16 measures straight, before going 8 measures in Ebmin7 and then back to Dmin7 for another 8 measures.


I thought you were talking about going from Emaj7 to Amaj, as your paragraph lead me to believe you were saying such a progression was wrong.
#17
I'll throw out another voicing for an Emaj7#11; nothing wrong with thepagesaretorn's voicing, I just happen to dislike having the eleventh as the top voice and I think the tritone in the bottom voices is interesting.


e-7-
B-9-
G-8-
D-8-
A-7-
E---

You can play the low E if you like, but I usually don't.
Last edited by :-D at Aug 27, 2008,
#18
Quote by farcry
I thought you were talking about going from Emaj7 to Amaj, as your paragraph lead me to believe you were saying such a progression was wrong.


Nah man, i would never tell anyone that a progression is wrong. Do whatever sounds good. I was arguing on what is a dominant chord (and the whole purpose of that min7 as a leading tone that resolves up, which is crucial in voice leading)

Oh and to archeo, I totally forgot to also state that I'm not talking about some old classical theory whatevers. This is standard jazz theory; the whole labeling system's different and especially in older stuff like baroque, extensions from the base triad aren't even really used. Even in jazz there's a dense structure to everything, although there's definitely more options since things such as modal mixtures are more readily available to a soloist's palette.

edit: I also like :-D's voicing. personally, i gave him that voicing because he can slide his curved barre up to the B to make a cool upper voice shift if done in a rhythmic fashion (just a little movement from the TT to the P5). And yeah, dont use the low E like he said; playing on the 5th and 6th strings at the same time tends to muddy the sound up a lot. You got enough going on with 5 notes alone-- leave it be haha.
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Last edited by thepagesaretorn at Aug 27, 2008,
#19
Quote by thepagesaretorn
edit: I also like :-D's voicing. personally, i gave him that voicing because he can slide his curved barre up to the B to make a cool upper voice shift if done in a rhythmic fashion (just a little movement from the TT to the P5). And yeah, dont use the low E like he said; playing on the 5th and 6th strings at the same time tends to muddy the sound up a lot. You got enough going on with 5 notes alone-- leave it be haha.

Yeah, playing E-E-A# on the lowest strings would sound like ass, and I like having the tritone because you can do some interesting things if you move semitonally from either voice.
#20
Quote by thepagesaretorn
And yeah, dont use the low E like he said; playing on the 5th and 6th strings at the same time tends to muddy the sound up a lot. You got enough going on with 5 notes alone-- leave it be haha.


yeah i agree, i tried doing that a bit, use the low E, since its a "correct" note, but it sounded bad.

i still have yet to pick my guitar up since this post, im going to get inspired then see how all this works out.
#21
you wanted a maj7#11, but jsut as a suggestion, I really really really really love maj9 chords. I play a lot of bossa nova stuff (among other things), and 9 chords make my world go round haha. How bout a maj9#11 maybe? it would go like this:

6
7
8
6
7
x
(barre on 6...and you can shift all of this down a whole step and do Dmaj9#11.)
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#22
Do you mean the studio version where theres the bow solo and that one bass line?

Or the live version with the san fransisco section?

Either or, its more about phrasing then the scale you use if thats the sound your trying to create.

Id bet jimmy page only knew a handful of scales, so its really more about phrasing and the notes you choose in the scale then the scale your playing.

EDIT

I should add that stylistically, if thats what your going for, that theres usually no chord change in that dazed and confused vamp. He might start the measure on a different chord, but hes back to the tonic by 4. So for all practical purposes, its an Em vamp.

Sorry for long post, Im usually better about it considering my name
Last edited by zeppelinfreak51 at Aug 27, 2008,
#23
Quote by zeppelinfreak51
Do you mean the studio version where theres the bow solo and that one bass line?

Or the live version with the san fransisco section?

Either or, its more about phrasing then the scale you use if thats the sound your trying to create.

Id bet jimmy page only knew a handful of scales, so its really more about phrasing and the notes you choose in the scale then the scale your playing.

EDIT

I should add that stylistically, if thats what your going for, that theres usually no chord change in that dazed and confused vamp. He might start the measure on a different chord, but hes back to the tonic by 4. So for all practical purposes, its an Em vamp.

Sorry for long post, Im usually better about it considering my name



oh it sounds nothing like it, i was just using that song as an example to explain what the part of the song was, a ambient kinda jam out part of an otherwise musically rhythmatic song, not the chord changes or anytyhing. going off your live/studio compairision, i have the "studio" version more or less done, set, what have you. but when playing live, we like to jam it out and have fun with it. i was looking for ideas to spice up what im doing from time to time, so instead of me doing my normal blues pentatonic or major/minor/harmonic scales. they are good, but i was looking for a different.... color


back to the topic though, i played around with the lydian, sounds nice, im gonna need to give it a try with the band though and see how i wana fit it in. ive got a few ideas im rolling around now.

now to try out these maj9 chords.
#24
awesome =] im glad it worked out haha.
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#25
Quote by thepagesaretorn
Anyone with a musical knowledge above that of a household appliance wouldn't have used the word cadence. Cadence means the ending of a musical phrase.


Hence the term "incomplete". A offers a good resolution, and it's entirely possible to imply a tonal center without playing the tonic chord. You're taking issue with a word I used for lack of a better term that isn't even central to my argument. This is either a straw man, or just incredibly petty.

Also, if you're playing chords like that in a vamp form and not in an actual literal progression, why would you ever need to resolve it when you're just jamming?


He stated that the chords were used in a brief, transitional section. Why is it unreasonable to expect that he would resolve them? Even vamps aren't, by necessity, devoid of tonal centers.

the reason why Lydian was a good idea is because, truly, the vamp is modal. If you ever wanted to finish it, sure you can make a run back into A Maj, but realize that that maj7 interval in the Emaj7 chord will HORRENDOUSLY clash with an A Major run; it's sorta a no-no to play maj+min 7ths together


I vaguely recall explicitly mentioning this.

Listen to some modal jazz and hear how it works. "So What" is a good tune for things like these (it uses minor chords instead of major, but same deal since it's only two chords anyway). Miles Davis' recording is pretty sweet.


I'm familiar with modal jazz.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#26
I think he/she just wants to be right, I get what you mean and it makes perfect sense to me. I wouldn't waste any more time arguing with someone who just wants to pick a fight, as yoda would say, in circles you will go.
#27
^^

Ya I agree, I found that post rather helpful arch, and you stated right away that the 'progression' isn't really diatonic. Good stuff
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#28
Quote by thepagesaretorn
ehh...I consider ionian not as good for this situation as Lydian would be, especially since this is really modal. Lydian, because of that sharp 4, gives you a more bright, more happy tone. Ionian, due to the lack of that, will sound boring and even "more dissonant" than Lydian. See like, for instance, maj7#11 is a cool chord, and that #11 is the tritone. By using the lydian scale, you include that awesome note into the fray.



I've never heard of the major scale being more dissonant then the tri-tone.
#30
Quote by The_Sophist
I've never heard of the major scale being more dissonant then the tri-tone.


First, I'm not comparing a tritone, which is an interval, with a major scale. The idea of the Lydian mode being more "consonant" than the Major scale is because of the rubbing up caused between the P4 and the M3 when you play a line involving a P4 over top of the tonic chord. The idea is the raised 11th complements everything else. Record yourself playing a Cmaj7 chord, and then play two lines, one ionian and one lydian, and really listen to the sound.

In terms of conventional harmony, it's wrong to include the P4 and the M3 at the same time. If you want something of a source, here's something to brush up on:

http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/chords4_harmonized_scale.htm

and no, im not trying to pick a fight and I have nothing against Archeo. The thing is is I feel that vocabulary is of the utmost importance when explaining these things, because if they get mixed up, it'll ends up confusing the situation. Anyone trying to learn from this who isnt up-to-par will end up with bad habits/wrong ideas/whatever, and I wanted the TS to not have a headspin (such as because of redundant statements like a major with a raised fourth or no fourth at all, as opposed to saying Lydian). I only repeated back all those things regarding appliances, but i shouldve showed some restraint-- it wont happen again.
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#31
Quote by chris024
im looking for a good scale to use over a Emaj7 to Dmaj7 jam. its a very happy trippy sounding section. more or less a flashback inducing jam.

I looped this last night and my ear tends to go in the direction of Lydian and/or Major scale over the respective chords.
Last edited by mdc at Aug 30, 2008,
#32
Quote by mdc
I looped this last night and my ear tends to go in the direction of Lydian and/or Major scale over the respective chords.


thats actually exactly what i ended up doing, a combination of those 2 scales, along with randomly picking (more or less, i had a patter of sort) the chords. . we played last night and i tried out some of what i was working on, i was ****face drunk but im pretty sure it sounded good. guy promoting the night said it was the best he's herd us play. i also played with a B -> A chord change( V and IV on the E progression, was my thought) but lower (2nd fret barre and open Amaj7) then chromatically climbed back to E, sounded good i think, people were jaming to it but i was wasted so i was gonna enjoy it and have fun no matter what.we've got a show tomorrow night thats gonna be 20 mins longer than this one, so i'll have a bit more time to play with it.