Poll: Read post.
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I believe in free post.
77 59%
I believe in determinism.
37 28%
I believe in fate.
16 12%
Voters: 131.
Page 1 of 6
#1
Poll coming up.

I was arguing with a friend the other day that she had no free will, as this annoys her as she likes the comfort zone of thinking that she does, and also because I'm a bitter, arrogant tool like that

In case you're wondering how I could make such a claim, it's no fate nonsense, it's something some of you should be familiar with and is described here. Ignore the cockiness of the guy explaining it and give it a shot. It's a completely rational philosophy which is completely reliant on cause and effect and believes that no effect is without cause, including in humans. Watch it and come back and tell me what you think. It in a nutshell describes your free will as a sheer illusion.

It's not supernatural and is rooted in physics, and there are even various physics reports which back it up, including here.

Anyway, regardless that my mind is rather set on this, I decided to throw it out to discussion and also throw out a poll. We had one on animals awhile back, but not on humans.

Go.

EDIT: If any mod could edit my poll error, that'd be rad.
Last edited by Craigo at Aug 30, 2008,
#3
what about determinism and free will?
Sure all my decisions may have an outcome that WILL happen, but in my mind i still have to make the decision.
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#4
so I could go and shoot up a busload of people and say it was inevitable because it was predetermined?

we've got free will

edit: didn't quantum mechanics kind of screw up the determinist ideas from the dudes in the 18th century? all that uncertainty principle stuff and such
Last edited by seljer at Aug 30, 2008,
#5
I like to think i create my own fate.
But there are some things beyond my control.
Though i still have the power to make the most out of the things that are under my control. And adjust and make use of the things that are not under my control.
#6
the determinism one.. i think
meh this is all to philosophical for me, my head hurts *leaves*
wen i ask they say that they fall into the habit smhw ........but nyways i think there is a connection smwhere. Now i being a teetollar will not give into this habit nyhw

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#7
I like the idea of fate. The only reason for this is that the idea of something else controling my life gives me comfort.


I am a lazy person.
#8
Quote by MrTin
Is it just me or are pretty much all of your threads about philosophy and stuff?


we're his test subjects....

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#10
I say we do have free will, because don't you think that we do have some influence over the "cause" of these situations? I didn't watch the video..
It's depressing to think everything is predetermined, what if you're made out to be a garbageman? You're screwed
#11
I guess free will is what you make of it.
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#12
How I'm going to live is based on my actions and how I'm going to die will most likely be based on the actions of others.
#13
The whole 'your actions are predetermined' idea always seemed to me as just a way people justify their negative actions and trivialize others' achievements.
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#14
I don't know how much free will we have.
I like to think freedom is a right and not a privilege. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
#15
Quote by seljer
so I could go and shoot up a busload of people and say it was inevitable because it was predetermined?

we've got free will

edit: didn't quantum mechanics kind of screw up the determinist ideas from the dudes in the 18th century? all that uncertainty principle stuff and such

Definitely not. Determinism occurs because of previous events.

You think you got free will, but determinism explains how it's an illusion.

And no, quantum mechanic appears to be random, however there is nothing to say that it is random. There are some quantum papers supporting determinism.
#16
Quote by MH_Worshipper
I like the idea of fate. The only reason for this is that the idea of something else controling my life gives me comfort.


I am a lazy person.


Utter opposite. If somthing else is controling what you do, why bother?

Even Neo agrees. "I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life."
#17
Sartre said that with the liberty of thinking, which is innate to every human being, you are free.

And I think it was Emmanuel Kant who said that you always have the choice. Even if your life is threatened "Obey or you're dead", you always have the choice.
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#18
Quote by GodofCheesecake
The whole 'your actions are predetermined' idea always seemed to me as just a way people justify their negative actions and trivialize others' achievements.

Your actions are not predetermined, but bound to happen. That's the difference between fate and determinism. It does not make bad actions neutral either. as much as people try to use this against the philosophy.
#19
Quote by JeanMi36
Sartre said that with the liberty of thinking, which is innate to every human being, you are free.

And I think it was Emmanuel Kant who said that you always have the choice. Even if your life is threatened "Obey or you're dead", you always have the choice.

Satre was wrong. The way you think is determined by things in your life. There is no innate liberty of thought. Every thought has a cause, it cannot escape determinism.

Kant is a good example of this. The guy was brought up a devout Christian, and his works, which are product of his thoughts resemble this.
#20
Quote by Deece
Utter opposite. If somthing else is controling what you do, why bother?

Even Neo agrees. "I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life."

Many people use this. The friend I was talking about earlier told me the other day 'Craig, why revise for exams if you're a determinist anyway?'

Simple. L'effect c'est moi. I am the effect. Whatever I get in my college exams is a product of what I do. Sitting back and expecting everything to fall in place is not what determinism is about.
#21
Quote by Craigo
Definitely not. Determinism occurs because of previous events.

You think you got free will, but determinism explains how it's an illusion.

And no, quantum mechanic appears to be random, however there is nothing to say that it is random. There are some quantum papers supporting determinism.


even if it is merely an illusion

the human body and mind and hell....everything is too complicated to predict the future so does it really matter?

society works with free will

go argue semantics over it if you want
#22
Quote by Craigo
Satre was wrong. The way you think is determined by things in your life. There is no innate liberty of thought. Every thought has a cause, it cannot escape determinism.

Kant is a good example of this. The guy was brought up a devout Christian, and his works, which are product of his thoughts resemble this.


I do not agree with Sartre either, I was just bringing the subject of existentialism
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#23
Quote by seljer
even if it is merely an illusion

the human body and mind and hell....everything is too complicated to predict the future so does it really matter?

society works with free will

Delete the last sentence and the word 'hell' and 'even if' in the first sentence, and this post would be rad.
#24
I think you can't prove or disprove anything cause we have no technology even close to what we'd need. Why worry about it anyway, everyone lives and dies the same. Live your life.

Plus, I want to pull out a baby's intestines and strangle that guy in the determinism video. Honestly, how much of a raving tool shed can you be?
#25
Quote by Craigo
Delete the last sentence and the word 'hell' and 'even if' in the first sentence, and this post would be rad.


I meant hell as an exclamation, not some imaginary burning death place
#26
Quote by mastaphoo
I think you can't prove or disprove anything cause we have no technology even close to what we'd need. Why worry about it anyway, everyone lives and dies the same. Live your life.

Plus, I want to pull out a baby's intestines and strangle that guy in the determinism video. Honestly, how much of a raving tool shed can you be?

He seems like a tool at first, but a good explanation, that's why I used it. Checking out the guy's other videos, it looks like we can get on pretty well.

If we could critically watch everything at the same time, we could predict everything that would ever happen. However, we can't. We can, however, put our basic notions of science past our comfort zones and see how it can apply to the world.

And meh, Philosophy is fun
#28
i would believe it, except what was the original cause? and it would be impossible without an original effect according to this i guess.

interesting video though
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#30
Quote by rydaflyguy03
i would believe it, except what was the original cause? and it would be impossible without an original effect according to this i guess.

interesting video though



And, I'd say from the singularity which had a mass expansion of time, matter and space and all that stuff. From there, no idea
#31
I think it's a little bit of everything. You can't control such things as when you're grandma is gonna die(unless of course you kill her), but you can decide whether to go to Uni or not. I don't really believe in fate; some things are just bound to happen.
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#33
Quote by shut_up_n00b
I think it's a little bit of everything. You can't control such things as when you're grandma is gonna die(unless of course you kill her), but you can decide whether to go to Uni or not. I don't really believe in fate; some things are just bound to happen.

That's cool, but for that to happen, you'll have to believe that some things do not have a cause.

Which is pretty hard to argue.
#34
The fatal flaw in the theory of determinism is that the entire school of thought asserts that humans are far too simple to see the patterns leading to the actions. So even if humans do have free will, a determinist could just counter it with the argument, "No, you were meant to do that, you just can't understand it." You provide an absolutely irrefutable argument by making the gigantic assumption that everything, is indeed, patterned.
#36
It's hard for me to pick a side, I feel like anyone can say they believe in determination because someone could say they knew what was coming even if they didn't.

Let me elaborate and take a simple example, say you're walking though a deserted woodland area on a straight path and the pate divides into two. Ordinarily you would take the right path as you feel more comfortable with it, most people do(I myself do too), but before, you had a discussion with your friends about determination and you decide to take the left side to show that you have the ability to do what you want.

Can't somebody just say 'God(or some being) knew you would talk about the concept and knew you would take the other path instead'? It's kind of unfair, if you ask me.

Personally, I do kind of think every action you make leads you on a set path, though I don't think some 'God' had written your life out before birth or anything...

I'm really not to good on discussing philosophy, so forgive me if I said anything stupid or irrelevant.
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#37
Quote by NGD1313
The fatal flaw in the theory of determinism is that the entire school of thought asserts that humans are far too simple to see the patterns leading to the actions. So even if humans do have free will, a determinist could just counter it with the argument, "No, you were meant to do that, you just can't understand it." You provide an absolutely irrefutable argument by making the gigantic assumption that everything, is indeed, patterned.

sounds a bit like some religious people to me.

I'm content with my 'I don't know' both for this and religion.
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#38
I believe in free will, it comforts me to know that I control my own life and make my own decisions. The idea of determinism and fate ruling my life would just make me feel like a helpless little pair of eyes
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#39
Quote by NGD1313
The fatal flaw in the theory of determinism is that the entire school of thought asserts that humans are far too simple to see the patterns leading to the actions. So even if humans do have free will, a determinist could just counter it with the argument, "No, you were meant to do that, you just can't understand it." You provide an absolutely irrefutable argument by making the gigantic assumption that everything, is indeed, patterned.

The development of special to general relativity was made by explaining gravity's input. Rather than Einstein saying 'I don't understand it', he worked on it and finally managed to fit it in, with experimental conclusions. The reason why we couldn't fit it in yet was because we didn't know the bigger picture.

The same applies to determinism. We don't go for the 'it's too complex' approach.

sounds a bit like some religious people to me.

Yeah, it reminded me of the God of Gaps.
#40
Quote by Alreddyded
I believe in free will, it comforts me to know that I control my own life and make my own decisions. The idea of determinism and fate ruling my life would just make me feel like a helpless little pair of eyes

So do loads of others when they first face the idea, but then you realise it's okay