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#3
no you will get shot on sight.


..you can as out of a scale as you want... sometimes it creates an original sound, sometimes it sounds like you have no idea what your doing.
#6
Quote by UncleCthulhu
Of course you can, there are no rules in music.


I think it goes a little far to say that there's NO rules in music, there's just many legitimate ways to break them.
#9
Quote by UncleCthulhu
there are no rules in music.
This is a false statement. Your note choice is not determined by standard conventions of theory, that's left up to your judgement, ear, and sense of good taste, but there are very defined rules for nomenclature and note-naming.
#10
Quote by bangoodcharlote
This is a false statement. Your note choice is not determined by standard conventions of theory, that's left up to your judgement, ear, and sense of good taste, but there are very defined rules for nomenclature and note-naming.


And who makes you follow them?
It's just what most people follow :P
#11
Quote by Chasepw133
And who makes you follow them?
It's just what most people follow :P


Anyone who wants to get anywhere with it! *smack*
#12
Quote by Chasepw133
And who makes you follow them?
The rest of the music community who knows why you can't play an A# note in a Gm scale (not that you wouldn't or it would sound bad, you physically can't).

Moreover, Arch and I will destroy anyone who flagrantly and maliciously violates these terms. Don't try to be "cool," "punk," "a rebel," "kvlt," "goth," etc by violating these rules; you will look like a fool in front of educated musicians and perhaps even confuse them.
#13
Quote by bangoodcharlote
This is a false statement. Your note choice is not determined by standard conventions of theory, that's left up to your judgement, ear, and sense of good taste, but there are very defined rules for nomenclature and note-naming.



tell THAT to Josh Homme. Mo fo has done a damn good job using that mantra.
#14
Quote by JDizzle787
tell THAT to Josh Homme. Mo fo has done a damn good job using that mantra.
I have no idea what you just said due to your poor syntax (if English is not your primary language, I apologize), but it is evident that you didn't understand my post due to a lack of reading comprehension or attention to detail.
#15
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I have no idea what you just said due to your poor syntax (if English is not your primary language, I apologize), but it is evident that you didn't understand my post due to a lack of reading comprehension or attention to detail.



I have a very good command of the English language, but it seems you don't understand slang in typed form . I read your statement very clearly, and was replying in earnest to the statement you made; regarding your belief that the idea behind "no rules in music".


On second look, you didn't necessarily say what I thought you said, but I tend to overreact in such situations; nevertheless, opening that post with "That statement is false" set me off, and I replied with an example that contradicted that statement.
#16
Yes. They're called accidentals.

I don't see why everyone is so worked up.
#17
Quote by JDizzle787
I have a very good command of the English language, but it seems you don't understand slang in typed form . I read your statement very clearly, and was replying in earnest to the statement you made; regarding your belief that the idea behind "no rules in music".


On second look, you didn't necessarily say what I thought you said, but I tend to overreact in such situations; nevertheless, opening that post with "That statement is false" set me off, and I replied with an example that contradicted that statement.
The problem is that you are arguing with me about the point with which I agreed.

You agree that any tone can be used if it creates the sound desired by the player, yes? I agree with that statement.

You agree that there are specific rules for naming chords and notes, ie you can't play A# in a G minor scale, yes? I agree with that statement.

Also, please refrain from using slang when arguing, and I mean this in general, not just appertaining to your post. It's not that I detest slang, I speak vernacular English like everyone else, not perfect English, but using slang when arguing diminishes the potentness of your argument by making you sound uneducated and foolish, not worthy of even being involved in the debate.
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
The rest of the music community who knows why you can't play an A# note in a Gm scale (not that you wouldn't or it would sound bad, you physically can't).

Moreover, Arch and I will destroy anyone who flagrantly and maliciously violates these terms. Don't try to be "cool," "punk," "a rebel," "kvlt," "goth," etc by violating these rules; you will look like a fool in front of educated musicians and perhaps even confuse them.


Bu! liek mu$iC 7he0ry 1$ $hizz J11m hendr!1X pL4y fR0m da s0uL!11!!


Well, you could play A# as a passing tone or something (although it wouldn't be considered the exact scale, but whatever)
#20
Quote by bangoodcharlote
No! It is ALWAYS Bb and never A# in that context.


BUt if for instance you are playing G A A# Bb or something like that in meantone tuning you could be using it like a passing tone..

Sorry, forgot we are always talking about 12tet
#21
Quote by gonzaw
BUt if for instance you are playing G A A# Bb or something like that in meantone tuning you could be using it like a passing tone..

Sorry, forgot we are always talking about 12tet


No educated composer would write G A A# Bb, it would be written G A Bb Bb simply because of context. If you wanted to compose with a G minor scale but decide to raise the 2nd scale degree for some reason then there wouldn't be an A-natural.

On a side note, raising the 2nd scale degree has little to no use because then it would be enharmonic to the 3rd degree.
#22
Fact is, in Jazz music, probably the form of music where musicians know the most about the so called 'rules', is also the form of music where the rules are most often broken. Going off key can be beautiful if you know what youre doing.

Ex: Usign leading tones (the note chromatically before or after) when targetting certain degrees of a chord (often the 3rd and 7th) makes beautiful result, be it in jazz or in blues. As long as you feel it and you 'land' on the good notes everything will be fine. The more you **** up while experimenting, the more youll know what works or what dosen't. Trust your ear! Theres no right or wrong in music, as long as it sounds good to someone.
#23
Quote by pwrmax
On a side note, raising the 2nd scale degree has little to no use because then it would be enharmonic to the 3rd degree.
Can you play Hendrix's "Purple Haze?"


E7#9...the Hendrix chord.
#24
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the Hendrix chord contains both major and minor thirds right?
#25
well dude you can use like a note not in the scale but dont stay too long on that not otherwise it will sound crappy
#26
Quote by Darkmessiahnz
Say I'm using a scale but I want to use another note, can I use that??


No, Music Theory Department will come and arrest you.
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#27
All gonzaw's post in this thread are made of win. No statement will ever be more awesome than: Bu! liek mu$iC 7he0ry 1$ $hizz J11m hendr!1X pL4y fR0m da s0uL!11!!. And his suggestion about non 12-tet music, pure genious. But yeah, keep it 12-tet. No just intonation or 13 onwards tet. It's just not cool.

Quote by The_Sophist
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the Hendrix chord contains both major and minor thirds right?
Your wrong, but only about the nomenclature. A "hendrix chord" is a root, 3, 5, m7, #9 (which is enharmonic to a m3)

My understanding is that there can only be one third in a scale/chord (because it defines the tonality in a chord or mode), and its either major or minor.

Keep in mind that you can never have two roots (flat roots and sharp roots are just stupid) or two thirds, as these notes define the tonality. You can have two of everything else.

If theres a chord or scale with both an interval of 3 semitones and an interval of 4 semitones, than (usually) the interval of 4 semitones takes the title of "major third" and the other gets left with the lowly position of "augmented second." This is especially true in chords.

Except if the chord being used is either a minor chord or some sort of diminished chord, but the scale being used over the top contains an interval of 4 semitones. In this circumstance the interval of 4 semitones will be known as a b4 and the interval of 3 semitones is known as a minor third. This is because its functioning as a chord tone.

ARGGHHHH interval nomenclature. Its just not very cool.

Quote by UncleCthulhu
here are no rules in music.
I lol'd hard. Bitches dun know bout mah counterpoint.

In all honesty, anyone that says that direct b2 harmonic intervals sounds good is a retard who should have their hands cut off for the good of the musical world. Sorry guys, but tis the truth.

And if you disobey too many contrapuctual rules too often than you'll either create an unsingable song or something that sounds like utter crap. Hows that for rules.
#28
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Can you play Hendrix's "Purple Haze?"


E7#9...the Hendrix chord.


That would be an E G# D F##. Is that in E minor or major? If it's minor then wouldn't that sound the same as an E7 with an added 10?
#29
Quote by pwrmax
That would be an E G# D F##. Is that in E minor or major? If it's minor then wouldn't that sound the same as an E7 with an added 10?
Read the post above.

Also, keep in mind that major thirds almost always trump minor thirds when you are determining tonality.
#30
Quote by gonzaw
Of course you can...

As long as the result is something you want....


^ Very true: 1st response = question answered.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 31, 2008,
#31
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Can you play Hendrix's "Purple Haze?"


E7#9...the Hendrix chord.

He's talking about a minor key though, so I guess it comes down to deciding whether or not he's playing a major or minor key at that point.
#32
Quote by demonofthenight


And if you disobey too many contrapuctual rules too often than you'll either create an unsingable song or something that sounds like utter crap. Hows that for rules.


Gorguts - Obscura has loads of fans and worshippers. And loads of unsolved b2 harmonies and doesnt give a **** about these rules. Yet people still like it.
#33
^Agreed.


Just because you find counterpoint interesting demon doesn't mean it applies to everything in the whole ****ing musical world and is set in stone. It's a nice guide for composing but it's only that a guide. Your point about b2 intervals is subjective and not really valid. You're behaving the way people way back used to behave about el diablo en musica (tritone) which is foolish. Just because it doesn't sound consonant doesn't mean it sounds bad and having such a closed mind is going to hinder you later on. You play jazz too, you're playing b9 all the time.


Also, please refrain from using slang when arguing, and I mean this in general, not just appertaining to your post. It's not that I detest slang, I speak vernacular English like everyone else, not perfect English, but using slang when arguing diminishes the potentness of your argument by making you sound uneducated and foolish, not worthy of even being involved in the debate.



Come on, it's not like we're in the national debate society. Lay back a bit, it can be irritating to have you policing the forum telling everyone how they should talk, who's information they should follow etc. The rules of this very site say that as long as it's not 1337 speak it's ok and what he posted wasn't 1337, it was only common slang.


As for the thread, I agree with gonzaw and guitar munky. Play what you hear. If what you hear is out of key then go out of key. If it sounds good to you and you have a good ear it will most likely sound good in other people's mind. If you don't like the sound after you've tested it, well there are more sounds to explore.
#34
Quote by demonofthenight
All gonzaw's post in this thread are made of win. No statement will ever be more awesome than: Bu! liek mu$iC 7he0ry 1$ $hizz J11m hendr!1X pL4y fR0m da s0uL!11!!. And his suggestion about non 12-tet music, pure genious. But yeah, keep it 12-tet. No just intonation or 13 onwards tet. It's just not cool.


Are you being sarcastic?

I can't tell
#35
Quote by UncleCthulhu
Of course you can, there are no rules in music.

Fugue, strict counterpoint, etc.

To the TS, you can mix scales and foreign tones as much as you want, if that's your desired sound, as Gonzaw put it. It helps to be aware of what you're doing though.
#36
Quote by Darkmessiahnz
Say I'm using a scale but I want to use another note, can I use that??


Yes, you can. notes that are not in the scale you are using are called Dissonant. Here is how you use them:

You should start out with consonant notes (notes that are in your scale) and when you have enough consonant notes (you shouldn't need many, three is a good number in my opinion) Then throw in a dissonant note. This causes tension to the ear because it sounds "Bad". Then, you throw in a consonant note, and that last consonant note balances it out. This process is called a Resolution. This is BASICLY how it works, I'm sure there are more things I have left out, but yes, that is basicly it.
I LEARNED TWO-HANDED TAPPING ON MY OWN!

I am so happy, I could die right now, and it'd just be ok.

:P
#37
im totally going to make room in my sig for gonzaws stupid/awesome post

Bu! liek mu$iC 7he0ry 1$ $hizz J11m hendr!1X pL4y fR0m da s0uL!11!!.
BE HAPPY

Quote by ajmasterjaydude
so this kid at my school microwaved brussel sprouts for lunch, and when he was about to eat them one of them exploded on his face and burned him. i like turtles


in a thread about malmsteen^
#38
Quote by bangoodcharlote
"kvlt,"

You once suggested that I may see myself as a ^. What is it? I take it doesn't stand for "Katawba Valley Land Trust".....?

For the very reason you initially brought that quote upon me was due to an argument on enharmonic notes. One of my quotes being something along the lines of;

"doesn't matter in a live context, they've got the same goddamn sound!".

I've learnt a lot since then

A# does sound good in a G minor scale tho....jk.
Last edited by mdc at Sep 1, 2008,
#39
Quote by gonzaw
Are you being sarcastic?

I can't tell
No, I honestly thought that was well played. Good job sir, heres an e-cookie for your awesomness.

I still retain my arguement that direct b2 harmonies are for tone deaf trolls. It's not a subjective dissonance like minor sixths, tritones (in some situations) and other out of key notes. It's a scientific thing due to harmonics and other crap. If all musical conventions of tonality and harmonic rules broke down (due to the fact that art music is becomming more and more dissonant), the direct b2 harmony would still be unused.

It sounds like shit, just leave it at that.
#40
Quote by demonofthenight
In all honesty, anyone that says that direct b2 harmonic intervals sounds good is a retard who should have their hands cut off for the good of the musical world. Sorry guys, but tis the truth.

You're such a penis.

I still retain my arguement that direct b2 harmonies are for tone deaf trolls.

You're such a penis.
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