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#1
I'm speaking about Hydrogen cars.
Like the GM Hy-Wire and the Honda FCX Clarity.

They use Hydrogen which can be extracted from water (by electrolysis) which passes through a fuel cell where the Hydrogen combines with atmospheric Oxygen to produce electricity to run the car.
It generates 100KW of electricity which is enough to power atleast 10 homes.
And the only emissions of this car is water. Which makes it completely environmentally neutral. So no more Global Warming and all that.

You can check out how the Honda FCX Clarity works over here:
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx

And here's a clip of James May testing out the GM Hy-Wire:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=46TFbwhOn7w&feature=related


And Hydrogen is not the only option. You've even got ethanol which can be extracted from crops like you make beer(which is already being done) and works as a very powerful fuel too and is also environmentally carbon neutral as the crops use CO2 to grow which is then released from the cars exhausts.
And there is also Methanol which can be easily synthesised from hydrogen and CO2. So if anyone can find a way to extract CO2 from the atmosphere, this one will be carbon neutral too!

As you can see there are all these amazing options to power vehicles on which are completely environmentally neutral. And it only takes a little bit of tweaking and tuning to make a normal gasoline engine run on ethanol and methanol. Like this one for example which can run on any combination of methanol, ethanol and petrol:
http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/2797

So why are we still stuck with oil and gasoline. Thats like Coal and firewood.
Its the fuel of the past and we need to move on from it to all the much better and efficient alternatives we have.

Yes, the alternatives are way more expensive, but thats only cuz they're produced in such small quantities. If the governments give enough initiatives and start mass producing these alternative fuels, their expenses will go down. Its simple economies of scale.

So i as you UG. What are we waiting for?!
#2
1. hydrogen isn't efficient yet
2. we need to grow crops for more important things than fuel. people in this world are starving.
#3
Quote by Erik_Aero
1. hydrogen isn't efficient yet
2. we need to grow crops for more important things than fuel. people in this world are starving.

Mainly this and hydrogen cars ARE being made and are INSANELY expensive.
They credited us with the birth of that sort of heavy metal thing. Well, if that's the case, there should be an immediate abortion.


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#4
Gas companies won't let it happen.
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#5
That would interfere with the oil companies' profits
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#6
Also: If you owned one, and a part stopped working or broke, good luck affording the repairs.
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#7
this technology is fairly new, it could take years before a hydrogen car ever hits the self. patenting and perfecting the product takes a very long time, then there will be fights amongst oil companies and hydrogen car creators obviously and people who don't want them because they're "bad for business". but in the end i'm sure they'll be released to the general public to the point where oil companies will go out of style like CD players.
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#8
Well, silly, the oil companies wouldn't make any money if they got put out of business.
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#9
Quote by BostonLP
Mainly this and hydrogen cars ARE being made and are INSANELY expensive.

Yeah, but you see, if you make them more, the price will go cheaper.
Only the Honda's FCX Clarity is in production which hardly sells.


And as for crops, maybe all the money that could be saved from paying high prices for oil, maintaining oil rigs, paying for shipping and labour could be used in developing 3rd world countries.
Could be used also for growing more food for the 3rd world countries?!

People just seem to be to lazy to make the big change.

Global Warming is quite a big problem too. People just don't realise it cuz it happens very slowly.

Quote by Mynabull
Gas companies won't let it happen.

What when the gas and oil runs out??
Which eventually it will. And its gonna happen pretty damn soon.

And why care bout oil companies when you can save the environment here?!
Last edited by af_the_fragile at Sep 5, 2008,
#10
If you're feeling like some serious propaganda in favour of this sort of thing you might look into a movie/series (?) called Who Killed the Electric Car or something - it details some electric car that was doing really well and was mysteriously pulled from the market and sent to be destroyed.

It's obviously horribly skewed in favor of alternative energy, but it does make you wonder.
#12
TO be honest, i don't give a damn. The Earth has gone through massive heatings and coolings in the past and we're just speeding up the process.
#13
gas is expensive and the government doesnt care about making money see as the president and vice president get money off of gas, so therefore no alternative energy cars.
#15
Quote by af_the_fragile
Yeah, but you see, if you make them more, the price will go cheaper.
Only the Honda's FCX Clarity is in production which hardly sells.

What when the gas and oil runs out??
Which eventually it will. And its gonna happen pretty damn soon.

And why care bout oil companies when you can save the environment here?!


I understand the concept of supply and demand, and trust me things are happening BIG things, but you need to be patient like someone said earlier, it takes a lot of time before products can be released to the general public. I'm not sure why everyone's so worried about the oil companies, because there's a lot more power in the public's hands than we get credit for and if you didn't notice I'm a poli-sci major :P
They credited us with the birth of that sort of heavy metal thing. Well, if that's the case, there should be an immediate abortion.


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#16
1. From what I've heard- it's barely worth it at the moment because we still burn fossil fuels for the electrolysis. Also, lack of infrastructure. There aren't many Hydrogen refueling stations around.

2. Ethanol is less efficient than regular gasoline and we don't have enough corn to produce enough Ethanol to power all the cars and feed livestock and humans.

3. Don't know about methanol.
#17
it takes more energy at the moment to extract hydrogen from water thru electrolysis than the energy the resulting hydrogen would produce. Stupid car manufacturers have also been trying to extract hydrogen from fossil based fuels in hydrogen powered cars thereby trying to extend the need for their products in the process. It can be done easier than electrolysis but the equipment to do it is very large which is hard to fit into automobiles and as I said maintains our reliance on the fossil fuel industry. Filling up a car with hydrogen so no on-board conversion is required is an option but due to it's explosive nature the public has been scared off the idea.
Personnally, I'd like to see the fuel cell used to power homes as 75-100KW would provide enough electricity for electric heat & A/C as well as power all your home appliances and probably charge up an electric car too. Size of the water to hydrogen convertor woudln't such an iussue either as homes could place the devices into basements or out-buildings.
Moving on.....
#18
Quote by af_the_fragile
Yeah, but you see, if you make them more, the price will go cheaper.
Only the Honda's FCX Clarity is in production which hardly sells.

it doesnt matter how many they make the price will still be very expensive because the technology is so advanced and so new that the research has cost millions and possibly billions of dollars and they have to some how cover that cost which is making the car very expensive so untill they make the technology "cheaper in price" the cost of production will go down and you will have a cheaper product
Quote by nincompoop
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#19
Quote by PissInMyShoeses
TO be honest, i don't give a damn. The Earth has gone through massive heatings and coolings in the past and we're just speeding up the process.

You see.
Earth goes though heatings and coolings which is a very slow process so the earth has enough time to recover and adapt.

We have sped up the process after the industrial revolution by atleast 100 times.
This is causing earth to heat up a lot faster than it can recover itself.

The continental glaciers or Greenland and Antartica are melting. And if they melt enough the earth could soon reach a tipping point beyond which it can't recover.
The ice sheath reflects back sunlight and keeps the earth cooler while the sea absorbs sunlight to keep the temperature up.
There is a very precise balance between these two processes which maintain the earths temperature.

The glaciers and ice sheets melt very slowly and grow back very slowly over the natural process.
But as we've sped up the process, the ice is melting a lot faster than it can grow back.

If the ice melts enough it'll reach a tipping point beyond which the earth can't recover at all. This will happen when enough ice has melted that it can't reflect back the sun's energy anymore, the seas will grow larger to absorb more energy and the earth will go so hot that the summer melting of the ice will out melt the winter freezing. All the ice will eventually melt and the earth will end up as one baked planet pretty close to what Venus is like. As venus is the result of the green house effect gone to the extreme.

The scientists are not lying. Global Warming is real.
#20
Quote by KenG
it takes more energy at the moment to extract hydrogen from water thru electrolysis than the energy the resulting hydrogen would produce. Stupid car manufacturers have also been trying to extract hydrogen from fossil based fuels in hydrogen powered cars thereby trying to extend the need for their products in the process. It can be done easier than electrolysis but the equipment to do it is very large which is hard to fit into automobiles and as I said maintains our reliance on the fossil fuel industry. Filling up a car with hydrogen so no on-board conversion is required is an option but due to it's explosive nature the public has been scared off the idea.
Personnally, I'd like to see the fuel cell used to power homes as 75-100KW would provide enough electricity for electric heat & A/C as well as power all your home appliances and probably charge up an electric car too. Size of the water to hydrogen convertor woudln't such an iussue either as homes could place the devices into basements or out-buildings.

The Honda FCX has an onboard Hydrogen fuel tank and its pretty safe.
Like even petrol is freaking explosive. Hydrogen is a common jet fuel. Used in rockets n stuff. Its pretty safe.

The way it works is that Hydrogen is extracted from water in large labs/facilities. Then the hydrogen is filled in the cars tank.

But it'ld be pretty cool if they could have fuel stations which do Petrol, Ethanol, Methanol and Hydrogen.

Quote by potcorn56
it doesnt matter how many they make the price will still be very expensive because the technology is so advanced and so new that the research has cost millions and possibly billions of dollars and they have to some how cover that cost which is making the car very expensive so untill they make the technology "cheaper in price" the cost of production will go down and you will have a cheaper product

But if they get to make more of these cars with some government incentives, they could lower the price of the car. I understand how it takes very expensive materials to make the fuel cells... But there is not enough research going on too.
Quote by Winsbury
and hydrogen is highly explosive (ie a hydrogen bomb (which uses isotopes of hydrogen - deuterium and tritium - both of which are easily found (i think))) -- youll need to find a safe way of transporting it first

The H-Bomb is completely different from Hydrogen gas.
H-Bomb is made up of deuterium and requires very high temperatures (millions of deg C) to fuse the deuterium atoms together to form Helium and release the energy.

This is H2, hydrogen gas which is used as rocket fuel in well, rockets/space shuttle n all.
Last edited by af_the_fragile at Sep 5, 2008,
#22
uses more water

water will become the new gas in the future in terms of price

mark my words pit
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#23
Quote by af_the_fragile
The Honda FCX has an onboard Hydrogen fuel tank and its pretty safe.
Like even petrol is freaking explosive. Hydrogen is a common jet fuel. Used in rockets n stuff. Its pretty safe.

The way it works is that Hydrogen is extracted from water in large labs/facilities. Then the hydrogen is filled in the cars tank.

But it'ld be pretty cool if they could have fuel stations which do Petrol, Ethanol, Methanol and Hydrogen.


But if they get to make more of these cars with some government incentives, they could lower the price of the car. I understand how it takes very expensive materials to make the fuel cells... But there is not enough research going on too.

you have a point but do you think a government is going to do that? i mean they might give out some grants or whatever there is a certain limit to what the government can and wants to contribute and yes there is not enough research which is why the cars are not coming so fast because if there was more research the cars would be here a lot sooner and therefore be less expensive because like i said they would have made the technology "cheaper in price"
and also cars now are more dangerous than hydrogen cars because hydrogen is lighter than air where if you get hit it will rise maybe into a ball of flame or just seep out hydrogen and not stay on the ground like gas and burn people alive
Quote by nincompoop
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Last edited by potcorn56 at Sep 5, 2008,
#24
i know a guy who made his own cells to run his car off water and it works very well you just have to have the patience and the smarts to do it and you can do it yourself. you can look it up anywhere and there are a lot of books that you can read that will tell you how to do it
#25
Quote by af_the_fragile
The Honda FCX has an onboard Hydrogen fuel tank and its pretty safe.
Like even petrol is freaking explosive. Hydrogen is a common jet fuel. Used in rockets n stuff. Its pretty safe.

The way it works is that Hydrogen is extracted from water in large labs/facilities. Then the hydrogen is filled in the cars tank.


liquid petrol isn't explosive. it's the vapour that ignites and it's easy for petrol to be stored as a liquid meaning it's relatively safe. hydrogen, at room temp, is a gas. to be stored safely it'd need to be stored in liquid or solid form and that's a difficult task in a car sized object.

I doubt hydrogen is a jet fuel, it might be rocket fuel but not jet fuel. and rockets are completely safe and inexpensive right?
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#26
Quote by Lemoninfluence
liquid petrol isn't explosive. it's the vapour that ignites and it's easy for petrol to be stored as a liquid meaning it's relatively safe. hydrogen, at room temp, is a gas. to be stored safely it'd need to be stored in liquid or solid form and that's a difficult task in a car sized object.

I doubt hydrogen is a jet fuel, it might be rocket fuel but not jet fuel. and rockets are completely safe and inexpensive right?

Rockets are safe. When was the last time you herd a rocket explode in an uncontrolled/disasterous manner??!
And they're only expensive cuz they need to be huge to carry enormous objects against the earths orbit. You need a lot of hydrogen and oxygen for that.
You won't even need a 1/10th of the hydrogen in a rocket to power the car.


And hydrogen was used in those Hindenburg things too. And they were huge!
They worked fine for a long time. Hindenburg was the only major disaster.
Consider that to how many plane crashes we have today.
Last edited by af_the_fragile at Sep 5, 2008,
#27
It is like the Car Companies are saying
"Look, we can do that, but we WON'T because you still have to be depended by gus and oil"

it is too clear.

That's Capitalism my friend.
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#29
Quote by KenMasters
It is like the Car Companies are saying
"Look, we can do that, but we WON'T because you still have to be depended by gus and oil"

it is too clear.

That's Capitalism my friend.

yes, i think this is the real answer.

The oil companies don't wanna let go of their strong hold n the world's dependence on them. Thats why there isn't much research and development going into the building of cheaper hydrogen cars and cultivating more bio fuels...
Quote by gallagher2006
Wait, so in theory, you can get a car that can run on beer? O_O

not beer, but ethanol.
More like absynth or like whats the strongest shit out there??!
#30
Quote by af_the_fragile
yes, i think this is the real answer.

The oil companies don't wanna let go of their strong hold n the world's dependence on them. Thats why there isn't much research and development going into the building of cheaper hydrogen cars and cultivating more bio fuels...

not beer, but ethanol.
More like absynth or like whats the strongest shit out there??!



ye, it's sad tho

we gotta do smth to change it....

See America Latina goin forward pal...
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#31
Quote by af_the_fragile
Rockets are safe. When was the last time you herd a rocket explode in an uncontrolled/disasterous manner??!
And they're only expensive cuz they need to be huge to carry enormous objects against the earths orbit.

that's why it's so easy and cheap for private organisations to make small rockets that can reach space. And why nasa and huge corporations are offering big money prizes for design competitions for people who can get their rockets to even several thousand feet.

And hydrogen was used in those Hindenburg things too. And they were huge!
They worked fine for a long time. Hindenburg was the only major disaster.
Consider that to how many plane crashes we have today.

compare the amount of plane crashes to the amount of car crashes and you see why it's completely vital that the fuel is as stable as possible.

you only have to see how fast the hindenburg went up to realise how dangerous hydrogen is. if a thing the size of the hindenburg burns in that short time, how quickly would a car burn up. currently a car fire would easily give you enough time to get out assuming you were conscious and alert, and you'd have a decent enough chance of getting out if you suffered minor injuries. a hydrogen fire wouldn't.

so we have a fuel that's unstable (or at least to unstable to safely move in a moving with a high traffic density and accident rate) and expensive as well as no infrastructure to allow for the distribution for the fuel. see why it's not happening yet?
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#32
Why no widespread use of ethanol? Because to fill up your car on ethanol you'd need something like 200 acres of crops (I don't remember the exact number but its something astronomically inefficient) to compare to the efficiency of gasoline.

Quote by gallagher2006
Wait, so in theory, you can get a car that can run on beer? O_O

Yeah but like ethanol it's nowhere near as efficient as high octane gasoline. Actually some Diesel trucks can run on beer/liqour but it's WAY more expensive than diesel. And not really what the engine is designed for, so you can get problems with detonation and pre-ignition, which can damage your engine.
Stop whining and learn your theory!

Quote by oddhawk676
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#33
Quote by Lemoninfluence
that's why it's so easy and cheap for private organisations to make small rockets that can reach space. And why nasa and huge corporations are offering big money prizes for design competitions for people who can get their rockets to even several thousand feet.


compare the amount of plane crashes to the amount of car crashes and you see why it's completely vital that the fuel is as stable as possible.

you only have to see how fast the hindenburg went up to realise how dangerous hydrogen is. if a thing the size of the hindenburg burns in that short time, how quickly would a car burn up. currently a car fire would easily give you enough time to get out assuming you were conscious and alert, and you'd have a decent enough chance of getting out if you suffered minor injuries. a hydrogen fire wouldn't.

so we have a fuel that's unstable (or at least to unstable to safely move in a moving with a high traffic density and accident rate) and expensive as well as no infrastructure to allow for the distribution for the fuel. see why it's not happening yet?

Many people have made small rockets that care capable of going quite a distance up into the sky. There's a lot that goes into rocket science. You need to take into account the design, the way the fuel is going to burn n many things. Its completely different from powering cars.

And the FCX Clarity claims to be pretty safe. Read this:
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/hydrogen-safety.aspx


And we all know the world id running out of petrol very soon. There is not an unlimited supply of crude oil in this world. For how long are we gonna depend on petrol and how much are we willing to pay for it?! I'ld hate to pay 5eur/gallon of petrol to run my car!
And the fuel prices are reaching that pretty soon.
#34
Quote by af_the_fragile
Rockets are safe. When was the last time you herd a rocket explode in an uncontrolled/disasterous manner??!

2003. columbia. google it smartass.
Last edited by landerson at Sep 5, 2008,
#35
Quote by Lemoninfluence
I doubt hydrogen is a jet fuel, it might be rocket fuel but not jet fuel. and rockets are completely safe and inexpensive right?


Actually I know for a fact jet fuel is not hydrogen based. It's kerosene-based. I wish people would know what they are talking about before posting something and pretending they are smart.
Stop whining and learn your theory!

Quote by oddhawk676
Yeah, some black guy with a yankees cap walks into the ice cream parlor, and I said "We dont serve your kind here," as in, yankee fans, i guess he thought something else and left.
#36
Quote by landerson
2003. columbia. google it smartass.

...not a rocket.

EDIT: all the honda website states is that it has a system that vents a leak and closes the valves on the tank and it's held to the same standards as a normal petrol car. that means nothing. it shouldn't be held to the same standards as a petrol car. mainly because it isn't a petrol car.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
Last edited by Lemoninfluence at Sep 5, 2008,
#37
Quote by landerson
columbia. google it smartass.

That was just 1 out of like how many, about 50 shuttle launches.
ANd it was cause of a defect in the rocket booster. The O-Rings which are kinda like a gasket were not fitted properly or they had a defect which caused the gas to leak out of the rocket and explode. It was a human error.

Edit: crap, i was speaking about challenger.
Columbia was no where related to rockets exploding. The shuttle exploded on reentry due to the extreme pressure and heat generated during the process.
Last edited by af_the_fragile at Sep 5, 2008,
#38
Quote by Lemoninfluence
liquid petrol isn't explosive. it's the vapour that ignites and it's easy for petrol to be stored as a liquid meaning it's relatively safe. hydrogen, at room temp, is a gas. to be stored safely it'd need to be stored in liquid or solid form and that's a difficult task in a car sized object.

I doubt hydrogen is a jet fuel, it might be rocket fuel but not jet fuel. and rockets are completely safe and inexpensive right?



You could store it the same was as LPG, after all that's pretty safe and is a liquid when compressed.
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#39
Quote by af_the_fragile
That was just 1 out of like how many, about 50 shuttle launches.
ANd it was cause of a defect in the rocket booster. The O-Rings which are kinda like a gasket were not fitted properly or they had a defect which caused the gas to leak out of the rocket and explode. It was a human error.

Edit: crap, i was speaking about challenger.
Columbia was no where related to rockets exploding. The shuttle exploded on reentry due to the extreme pressure and heat generated during the process.

yeah, that hydrogen made a pretty impressive sonic boom near texas, but hydrogen didnt make that explosion any worse.
#40
Quote by Winsbury
and hydrogen is highly explosive (ie a hydrogen bomb (which uses isotopes of hydrogen - deuterium and tritium - both of which are easily found (i think))) -- youll need to find a safe way of transporting it first


A hydrogen bomb is a nuclear bomb as in the atom is split when it explodes, they use hydrogen because it is the easiest atom to split due to it's inherently unstable nature.
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