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#1
Hi!

I'm having a chord progression where I use chord D5 Bb5 A5 and a F5 in the key on D aeolian but I'd like to add some colour on the A5 chord. I thought that I could use a D lydian over it 'cause D is the fourth note of A major scale which means lydian but then I thought that I use D major scales 5th note wich is an A and that would mean A D phyrigian over on it? which way is correct way if I want my tonal centre stay at D?

Edit: Oh and if I would the A as a Minor would I use a D dorian scale cause d is the 4th note of a minor scale wich is dorian, Am I correct?
鋼の錬金術師
Last edited by Punkismygod at Sep 7, 2008,
#3
wouldn't it be a dorian with raised 4th if I would like to add a harmonic minor mode over it and the tonal centre would stay as D?

Edit: must I look the D note from the A harmonic minor scale or look the A note in D harmonic minor scale to get the tonal centre D?
鋼の錬金術師
Last edited by Punkismygod at Sep 7, 2008,
#5
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It would be typical to play D harmonic minor over that A5 chord.

Just because it is typical does not mean that it won't add flavor.


so you go from the aeolian to the harmonic minor of the A5 and then back afterwards? why this chord?
#7
so harmonic minor on the V7 chord is typical when using aeolian or in general?
#8
Quote by farcry
so harmonic minor on the V7 chord is typical when using aeolian or in general?
If you play a V7 chord, you're not playing Aeolian, as Aeolian implies strictly modal music. In a minor key, however, it would be common to play a V or V7 chord rather than v or v7, and you would typically play harmonic minor over the V or V7 chord.
#9
Quote by bangoodcharlote
If you play a V7 chord, you're not playing Aeolian, as Aeolian implies strictly modal music. In a minor key, however, it would be common to play a V or V7 chord rather than v or v7, and you would typically play harmonic minor over the V or V7 chord.


I get confused with how people classify modes sometimes, but thanks for clarifying. The TS really confused me, but basically what you are saying is playing the harmonic minor over a V7 chord helps create color. What confused me was the F, would going from a V7 to the second then back to the tonic sound worse than just using the dominant 7th(and the natural minor) because playing the leading tone in a place before a turnaround should sound bad, or so I've been told.
#10
Quote by Punkismygod
Hi!

I'm having a chord progression where I use chord D5 Bb5 A5 and a F5 in the key on D aeolian but I'd like to add some colour on the A5 chord. I thought that I could use a D lydian over it 'cause D is the fourth note of A major scale which means lydian but then I thought that I use D major scales 5th note wich is an A and that would mean A D phyrigian over on it? which way is correct way if I want my tonal centre stay at D?

Edit: Oh and if I would the A as a Minor would I use a D dorian scale cause d is the 4th note of a minor scale wich is dorian, Am I correct?

There are a few different ways to approach this.
If you are just changing for the A chord then I would think in terms of A modes to fit against an A chord.

If you are using Am then you might prefer a mode that is going to be a minor mode in A:
A Aeolian A B C D E F G A
A Dorian A B C D E F# G A
A Phrygian A Bb C D E F G A - (This is just the relative of D Aeolian so may not be what you're after.)

In terms of relative modes in D this would be
D Dorian D E F G A B C D
D Lydian D E F# G A B C D
D Aeolian D E F G A Bb C D

I am not sure where you got D Phrygian. The relative mode in A is A Locrian.
D phrygian is D Eb F G A Bb C D. Against an Am, an A major, or even a simple A5 the Eb is going to sound off.

Of course to add flavour you can always mess around until you find a tasty note, add it in to your solo, then analyse it all afterwards.
Si
#13
Quote by divinorum69
F major scale is the same as A dorian, and D mixolydian?


No F major scale has got notes F G A Bb C D E F and A dorian has got notes A B C D E F# G A and D mixolydian has got notes D E F# G A B C D.

A dorian and D mixolydian are relative modes of G major scale
鋼の錬金術師
#14
Quote by Punkismygod
A dorian and D mixolydian are relative modes of G major scale
It should, however, be noted that those scales are very very different in usage, despite that fact that they contain the same notes.
#15
bangoodcharlote happen you to have any kind of a good lesson what kind of a chords to use under harmonic minor and melodic minor modes?
鋼の錬金術師
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It should, however, be noted that those scales are very very different in usage, despite that fact that they contain the same notes.


SORRRY!!! I meant G major is the same as A dorian, and D mixolydian. HAH

Just like F major is the same As G Dorian and C mixolydian right?
#19
^Not the same. You will get eaten alive for saying that.

Major is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Mixolydian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

It just so happens that when you use G as the root for the major scale, A as the final (root) of the Dorian Mode and D for Mixolydian you will be using the same notes. However, that is where the similarity ends and the vast differences begin.

You'd do better to think of D Mixolydian as the same as the D major scale with a flat 7 since it has more in common with the D major scale than the G major scale.

And D Dorian as the same as D Natural Minor (Aeolian) with a natural 6 degree.

Think of it this way:

D Major      = D  E  F# G  A  B  C#
             = [B]1  2  3  4  5  6[/B]  7  -- [B]6[/B] out of 7 scale degrees are the same.
D Mixolydian = D  E  F# G  A  B  C 

G Major      = G  A  B  C  D  E  F#
             = 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  -- [B]0[/B] out of 7 scale degrees are the same.
D Mixolydian = D  E  F# G  A  B  C 
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 8, 2008,
#20
But they are the same notes. I know that they both have diferent functions. A dorian's backround chord function is m7, while Ionian mode is M7 and mixolydian V7.

But G major scale, A dorian, and D mixolydian although "not" the same they share the same notes. You said it:
G Major = G A B C D E F#
= 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 -- 0 out of 7 scale degrees are the same.
D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C


Yes the degrees change but same notes nevertheless. A Dorian is the second degree of G major scale, and mixolydian the fifth.

If you are playing G major or A dorian, without a backround chord it sounds the same. The difference comes when you have a band playing. Santana's "Oye Como Va" is in A dorian and it doesnt sound in G major. I mean its the same notes, but sound different.

Another thing that I realise is that while using A dorian you can combine it with Am pentatonic and it will sound good.

I dont know this are my thoughts Am I too wrong¡?
#21
Quote by divinorum69
But they are the same notes. I know that they both have diferent functions. A dorian's backround chord function is m7, while Ionian mode is M7 and mixolydian V7.

But G major scale, A dorian, and D mixolydian although "not" the same they share the same notes. You said it:


Yes the degrees change but same notes nevertheless. A Dorian is the second degree of G major scale, and mixolydian the fifth.

If you are playing G major or A dorian, without a backround chord it sounds the same. The difference comes when you have a band playing. Santana's "Oye Como Va" is in A dorian and it doesnt sound in G major. I mean its the same notes, but sound different.

Another thing that I realise is that while using A dorian you can combine it with Am pentatonic and it will sound good.

I dont know this are my thoughts Am I too wrong¡?


That's what you need to say when explaining modes. They aren't the same, they have the same notes.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#22
Quote by divinorum69
But G major scale, A dorian, and D mixolydian although "not" the same they share the same notes.
agreed.
Quote by divinorum69
If you are playing G major or A dorian, without a backround chord it sounds the same. The difference comes when you have a band playing.
Disagree. Modes were originally used for homophonic music (music with just one voice therefore no harmonic backing). Saying that G Major and A Dorian sound the same without background harmony is like saying a melody is just a bunch of notes with no sense of movement or resolution without harmonic context to give it meaning. Many popular folk melodies are modal.

So if your playing a strong melody then G major and A dorian will not sound the same. If you're just noodling around then G major and A dorian could sound the same. The harmonic context will generally override your melody and can shift a tonal centre making a melody that sounds A dorian on it's own sound G major with the right/wrong harmonic context.

Quote by divinorum69
Another thing that I realise is that while using A dorian you can combine it with Am pentatonic and it will sound good.
Yes but it doesn't end there. Ever wonder why the minor pentatonic leaves out the 2nd and 6th degree while the Major Pentatonic leaves out the 4th and 7th degree?


A minor pentatonic = 1 b3 4 5 b7 = A C D E G

Compare with the scale degrees of any of the minor modes:
A Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 = A B C D E F# G
A Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 = A Bb C D E F G
A Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 = A B C D E F G

Notice how it is the 2nd and 6th degrees that differ between the three minor modes and the Minor Pentatonic conveniently leaves these two tones out.

Same with the Major Pentatonic which leaves out the 4th and 7th degrees.

A Major Pentatonic = 1 2 3 5 6

A Ionian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
A Lydian = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
A Mixolydian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

All the major scales share the same 1 2 3 5 6 degrees and this is why those are the notes of the Pentatonic Major Scale.

This is why Pentatonics work so well in pretty much any situation.

So I wonder if you're playing in A Dorian can you really combine it with Am Pentatonic or are you just being more selective of the notes you choose from the Dorian Mode? Semantics I suppose, or just a matter of how you're thinking about it as you play.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 8, 2008,
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Please rephrase the post so the syntax does not make it impossible to understand.


You know like you can use maj7add11# under a lydian mode to make it sound coold or a m7add9b under a phyrigian mode. Chords to use under harmonic and melodic scales modes like what to use under a phyrigian dominant what to use under ionian+ etc. Is there a good lesson about them somewhere?
鋼の錬金術師
#24
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Please rephrase the post so the syntax does not make it impossible to understand.



GAH. Come on Sue, give me a break.


I understood his post perfectly. Someone else did too. I'd say it's more than a coincidence. When I saw your post about his incomprehensible sentence I looked back at it and all it's missing is the word "with", punctuation and there is a grammatical error(which I think was intentional) at the start of it. All of which is actually within the rules of the site if I don't recall incorrectly, it's 1337 that's forbidden, not typos, lacking punctuation or slightly edgy grammar. Did you really need to call him out like that when he wasn't even being annoying, rude, provoking or anything else that would have annoyed you?


As for the poster with the terrible syntax I recommend you try work it out yourself. It's good practise. Take the mode and it's formula, find the characteristic notes of the mode(the ones that make it different from all other modes) and then try to find chords with those notes. It's easy with the major scale modes.


Or you could learn the melodic and harmonic minor scale harmony now that I think of it.
Last edited by confusius at Sep 9, 2008,
#25
Quote by 20Tigers
So I wonder if you're playing in A Dorian can you really combine it with Am Pentatonic or are you just being more selective of the notes you choose from the Dorian Mode? Semantics I suppose, or just a matter of how you're thinking about it as you play.


OKay you made me realise a bunch of stuff. Im new to the modal thing, Ive been playing guitar for almost 1 year and 6 months, and right now im learning all this, I know Im starting kind of late.

One more question. I made a riff, its in E mixolyidian (C Major) scale. OKay the thing is I added some backround chords, and It sounds pretty well, Fmajor, Gmajor, and Cmajor. Okay if it were a normal Cmajor thing I could use Am pentatonic right?, But it sounds bad, but Gminor pentatonic sounds great. Why?

Im going to post it on my profile, I recorded it, I would apreciate any help

EDIT: Its now up
Last edited by divinorum69 at Sep 9, 2008,
#26
Quote by divinorum69
OKay you made me realise a bunch of stuff. Im new to the modal thing, Ive been playing guitar for almost 1 year and 6 months, and right now im learning all this, I know Im starting kind of late.

One more question. I made a riff, its in E mixolyidian (C Major) scale. OKay the thing is I added some backround chords, and It sounds pretty well, Fmajor, Gmajor, and Cmajor. Okay if it were a normal Cmajor thing I could use Am pentatonic right?, But it sounds bad, but Gminor pentatonic sounds great. Why?

Im going to post it on my profile, I recorded it, I would apreciate any help

EDIT: Its now up



1 1/2 years is early to be learning modes, not late. What happens when you get into them prematurely is that you make alot of mistakes and develop alot of misconceptions. You really need to have a solid grasp on the fundamentals 1st.


btw E mixolydian is not related to the C major scale, its related to A Major (shares the same notes but is a different scale). If your chords are F G & C........E mixolydian would not be an appropriate scale to use.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 10, 2008,
#27
You've confused something with whatever you're trying to do.

If you're playing in E mixolydian, then you're using a mode from the A major scale not C major. The problem is that those chords are part of C major, not A major, which leads me to think you either mean E phrygian or G mixolydian.


So... which is it?
#28
Quote by confusius
You've confused something with whatever you're trying to do.

If you're playing in E mixolydian, then you're using a mode from the A major scale not C major. The problem is that those chords are part of C major, not A major, which leads me to think you either mean E phrygian or G mixolydian.


So... which is it?


Again i made the same mistake. This happens when I write this posts with out my guitar

OKay the chords ar F G C. G mixolydian (C majorscale). Okay now i think is right. Sounds good with G minor Pentatonic. Now its correct. Im not that dumb, its just that i get confused when I write this without the fretboard on my hands
#29
Quote by divinorum69
Again i made the same mistake. This happens when I write this posts with out my guitar

OKay the chords ar F G C. G mixolydian (C majorscale). Okay now i think is right. Sounds good with G minor Pentatonic. Now its correct. Im not that dumb, its just that i get confused when I write this without the fretboard on my hands



where is your tonal center?

as written you have a IV V I progression in C Major (Ionian if you want to impress people with the modal name).

If your tonal center is G, then mixolydian would be an appropriate term.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 9, 2008,
#30
Quote by GuitarMunky
where is your tonal center?


Listen to it its on my profile please.

The sequence goes |G % % % | F % C F |

I guess the tonal thing is G?


EDIT: You just edited, now I understand. Its G

2nd edit: I know its called Ionian. Its just that I have this Jazz theory book from the 80's with all the scales, and instead of learning how to play songs, i enjoy learning theory and apllying it to my own music. Im just starting with Dorian's and mixolyidians. Phyrigian, Aeolian, Lydian, all those scales are coming later. I first have to learn the Harmonic and Melodic Minor scales
Last edited by divinorum69 at Sep 9, 2008,
#31
Quote by divinorum69
Listen to it its on my profile please.

The sequence goes |G % % % | F % C F |

I guess the tonal thing is G?



the 1st one (modal help) ?

G - G - F - C


Yup..... G is the tonal center, so G mixolydian is appropriate.
shred is gaudy music
#32
It sounds mixolydian as well.


Are you sure you aren't using the G major pentatonic? It would sound alright over something with tonal centre in G.
#33
Quote by confusius
It sounds mixolydian as well.


Are you sure you aren't using the G major pentatonic? It would sound alright over something with tonal centre in G.


He did some minor pentatonic over it, you can hear it in there. It sounds fine actually. Only the Bb is out of key, but its been used in that context so many times that our ears accept it.

you could also justify it by seeing that progression as a G minor prog with a borrowed IV from the parellel Major.

i i VII IV

^ A very very common/cliche rock riff, that is often used in association with minor blues/minor pentatonic.


with a riff like that you can easily go between the mixo sound and the minor pentatonic sound. (there are many songs that do just that)
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 9, 2008,
#34
Quote by confusius
It sounds mixolydian as well.


Are you sure you aren't using the G major pentatonic? It would sound alright over something with tonal centre in G.


No, im sure im using G minor pentatonic, and combining it with G mixo.

This is one of the patterns of the scale, im pretty sure is G minor pentatonic

This would be the pattern starting on the 3 fret
#35
oic.


I didn't notice the minor pentatonic, I'll listen again for it.


EDIT: I stand corrected, that diagram is the minor pent.
#36
Quote by confusius
oic.


I didn't notice the minor pentatonic, I'll listen again for it.


I recorded this very fast. Only 39 secs. I barely used pentatonic. I recorded this a long time ago(3 weeks). And I didnt know what i was using this at the time, I barely added the pentatonic, you have to understand I did not know anything about modes, I was like " Im playing in C major and using the G minor pentatonic, weird". Anyways i recorded because when i come up with somthing as shitty as it is I record it on the computer
#37
Quote by divinorum69
I recorded this very fast. Only 39 secs. I barely used pentatonic. I recorded this a long time ago(3 weeks). And I didnt know what i was using this at the time, I barely added the pentatonic, you have to understand I did not know anything about modes, I was like " Im playing in C major and using the G minor pentatonic, weird". Anyways i recorded because when i come up with somthing as shitty as it is I record it on the computer


I like the fact that you used your ear to decide that it sounded good, and then searched for the reason why.

nice.
shred is gaudy music
#38
Quote by GuitarMunky
I like the fact that you used your ear to decide that it sounded good, and then searched for the reason why.

nice.


Thanks for your help

Edit: Also knowing all this if you combine the Gm pentatonic with the G mixolydian you can come up with a lot of tastier licks.
Last edited by divinorum69 at Sep 9, 2008,
#39
Can anyone give me the precious information i need that will help me to emphasize the sound of the mode im in, (apart from the chords i need to use, i understand that bit) ...basicly im struggling to use the modes....PLEASE PLEASE SOMEBODY HELP!
#40
Quote by divinorum69
SORRRY!!! I meant G major is the same as A dorian, and D mixolydian. HAH

Just like F major is the same As G Dorian and C mixolydian right?

You've learnt the modes as patterns as they relate to each other across the fret board, which is good to start off with cuz you'll memorize the fret board real good.

You know that G major, A Dorian etc share the same notes, but, this is also where their relationship ends. It's important to realise that in A Dorian the tonic has now shifted to A.

Quote by divinorum69
Also knowing all this if you combine the Gm pentatonic with the G mixolydian you can come up with a lot of tastier licks.

Yes you can. Well done, its great you've picked up that trick.
Last edited by mdc at Sep 10, 2008,
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