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#1
Hey guys, got a quick question for you all.

Ok, so. C Melodic Minor. C D Eb F G A B C, yeah? Now, second mode, starting on D. D Eb F G A B C D. Would you call this Dorian b2 or Phrygian natural 6? I've been wondering about this for a few days now, and figured I'd ask.
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#2
My personal prefferance is Phrygian Nat 6th.

Simply because, look, pattern.

Phrygian Raised 6th
Lydian Raised 5th
Mixolydian raised 4th
Aeolian raised 3rd
Locrian raised 2nd
Ionian raised root

Thats a real easy way of remembering the patterns for the Melodic (or Harmonic Minor) modes.

What else would you call Lydian #5? Cant think of anything else.

So working back from that

Lydian #5

Phrygian #6

Dorian #7

Mabey a pro can help me on this, but I think part of the reason melodic minor exists is to restore the leading tone to the Dorian mode, and thus restore the Dominant V chord

Sorry if that was a bit of a ritarted explanation, mabey somone else can add to it.

Than again, you could name them

Ionian b3
Dorian b2
Phrygian b1
Lydian b7
Mixolydian b6
Aeolian b5
Locrian b4

I still think its better the other way, because it outlines Melodic Minor as Dorian with the LT restored, not Ionian with a b3.

The LT restoration (I think) is quite common, because as I said before, it restores the dominant V to the chords of the scale, which again, allows for a perfect cadance.
Last edited by Galvanise69 at Sep 7, 2008,
#3
I agree with Galvanise, though it doesn't have a specific name so call it what you want.

Galvanise: You'll see "Lydian #5" referred to as Lydian Augmented and "Lydian b7" referred to as Lydian Dominant. "Locrian b4" is usually called either Altered or Super Locrian.
#4
^ I know.

I was just following the pattern, to illustrate.

As far as Melodic Minor Modes go.

I usually reffer to them as

Melodic Minor
Phrygian Nat 6th
Lydian Augmented
Lydian Dominant
Aeolian Dominant
Locrian Nat 2nd
Super Locrian (Altered Mode)
#5
Ah right, thanks for that guys. (Y)

I think I had another question to do with the Melodic/Harmonic Minor modes, but I forget what it was...
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#6
You should remember I really like Melodic Mior & Harmonic Minor Modes.

I do have a question.

In all the modes, can somone class all the degrees in the different modes and parent scales, according to the stable-ness and un-stable-ness?
#7
Quote by Skater901
Hey guys, got a quick question for you all.

Ok, so. C Melodic Minor. C D Eb F G A B C, yeah? Now, second mode, starting on D. D Eb F G A B C D. Would you call this Dorian b2 or Phrygian natural 6? I've been wondering about this for a few days now, and figured I'd ask.
Depends on what you view the melodic minor mode as. If you look at galvanises post, you'll get the idea.

I view it as a major mode with a flattened third, so the second mode will be dorian flat second.

Also, you might want to look at this thread: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=733397
#8
^ On those lines, I still always feel it easier to think of the 4th mode as Lydian #4 or Lydian Augmented, than Phrygian b1.

Obviously.

Is that that thread you directed me to? Branny's one? Great thread that.
#10
http://ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26618

That is the answer from the smartest theory guy in UG history.

We miss you, Cas.

Edit: Hold up...Cas has been around, like, recently. I thought he was perma-banned fir something in the pit. Oh well, I don't follow pit craziness.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Sep 8, 2008,
#13
Great thread, pity Cas doesnt just take up writing theory lessons for all us n00bs.

He said there that a sus chord fuctions the same way a dominant chord does, only without the tension.

Why?
#14
Where did he say that? Quote it in context.

My guess is that he means you can play all the weird alterations on it, save the #11, since you're going to resolve to a major chord anyway and the more odd sounds and tension, the sweeter the resolution (he may have used those exact words).
#15
"SUS's pretty much have the same function as dominant chords, but without the tension. so 7b9 and susb9 are going to function the same just as well as a normal 7th and normal sus would."
#16
The b9 creates a tritone between it and the 5th of the chord, similar to the way there's a tritone between the 3 and b7 of a dom7 chord, so I suppose that's way it works.

He was talking about Phrygian Dominant when he said that, correct?
#17
Susb9, Phrygian Dominant, correct.

Course there's a Tri-Tone between the 5th and b9 *facepalm*

How come is it I never seem to spot these things?

Do I just not go deep enough into the theory?

Do I just skim over and settle for knowing the basics?

So, does that mean that Sus chords, are usually V chords? Was he simply talking about the susb9?

"so 7b9 and susb9 are going to function the same just as well as a normal 7th and normal sus would"

I always thought susb9 were usually iii chords? But from what cas is saying, its they function just as well for V chords.

A G7b9, could a D Diminished 7 be classed as a sub for that? Could that that resolve to Ebmaj Ebmin whatever?
Last edited by Galvanise69 at Sep 9, 2008,
#19
If he was talkingabout 7sus4 chords why did he mention susb9? I dont think he actually said 7sus4 the whole way In his sentance?

Is he saying that susb9 is going to function the same way a 7sus4 would?
#20
Quote by 69er
If he was talkingabout 7sus4 chords why did he mention susb9? I dont think he actually said 7sus4 the whole way In his sentance?

Is he saying that susb9 is going to function the same way a 7sus4 would?


A sus chord functions the same way a dominant chord does.

dominant - r 3 (5) b7

sus - r 4 (5) b7

and to quote Cas-
Quote by the man
but the more common use of this scale (and phrygian for that matter) is over a SUSb9 chord .... (sus, in this referance, being 1-4-b7, so the sus b9 would be 1-4-b7-b9)
....


when he mentions the susb9 he is talking about use of the phrygian dominant scale.
Last edited by branny1982 at Sep 9, 2008,
#21
^ Ah right, thanks.

But a sus4 (or sus2) can function just as commonly for either major or minor chords?
#23
Im not sure how well a sus2 would function in a Minor 7th, the interval between the 2 and b7th of course being a Minor 6th, mabey it would work.

Of course, always play what sounds good.
#25
Quote by branny1982
what?

what does that mean?

The interval between the b7 and M2 is a major 3rd. A common rule is that when you invert intervals, the quality (m or M) changes, and they always, always add up to 9. So a M3 will invert to a m6.

The only exception being perfect intervals, which do add up to 9, but always remain perfect.
#27
Quote by branny1982
I meant what does this mean-

Lol, yeah what does that mean?
#29
Sorry, I misunderstood post #24, as a result, I came up with #25 which was unnecessary as I'm certain of your theory competence that you understood that rule of intervals and inversions. Apologies for that. I'd delete it, but will decide to leave it in case anyone happens to cast their eye over this thread as I do see it as a useful rule/piece of info.
#30
Quote by branny1982
I don't know what goes on Galvanise69's head sometimes!
They said the same thing about most genious's. Theres a fine line between disorganized, uninterpretable madness and genious

I think he means that using a m7 over a sus2 chord would sound messy. Say a Bb note over a Csus2 chord. Well, my answer is that I've seen sus chords used mostly as passing chords (I've seen a couple progressions that dont) and you use pretty much anything as a passing note.

Personally I dont like sus chords of any type. They sound weird.
#31
On the flip side of the coin, Dominant7sus4 chords sound good if they precede the following Dominant 7 chord of the same root.
#32
Well it seems like my thread has been successfully hijacked.
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#34
Sorry, what I meant, was Im not sure if using a sus2 chord in place of a ii, iii, or vi chord in any progression would work. Would it work?

Obviously the 4th and the Min7 give off quite a nice interval, (4th).

Just not sure about sus2 chords taking the place of minors.

I have the same hesitance when replacing Major7 chords with sus4 chords.

Demonofthenight: I recon for now, all I have is disorganization, out of those..

As for the b7sus4 sounding good coming before Dominant, I imagine the 4 - 3rd semi-tonal movment has something to do with that.

On the topic of sus2 chords, I remember theres a Zappa piece called "Rollo" and its all sus2 chords.

I think from memory it was inserted into Saint Alfanzo's Pancake Breakfast.
Last edited by Galvanise69 at Sep 10, 2008,
#36
I didnt ever read that sus2 chords should repalce majors and sus4 chords should replace minors.

It was just to do with the interval quantity, I was just thinking that it may not sound as good to replace a Major with a sus4 (obviously because of the tri-tone) than a sus2.

Obviously nothing is a hard and fast rule. Im not saying its even a rule, just me thinking out loud.
#37
Quote by Galvanise69
Sorry, what I meant, was Im not sure if using a sus2 chord in place of a ii, iii, or vi chord in any progression would work. Would it work?

Play your guitar and let your ear judge if it works or not.

Sus chords are ambiguous due to no 3rd being expressed, so theory wise they can replace a major or minor chord.
Last edited by mdc at Sep 10, 2008,
#38
Quote by Galvanise69

It was just to do with the interval quantity, I was just thinking that it may not sound as good to replace a Major with a sus4 (obviously because of the tri-tone) than a sus2.

What is interval quantity?
Do you mean interval quality?

A sus4 chord does not have a tritone... nor does a major chord.
#39
No, I meant the tri-tone present between the 4th of the sus chord, and the 7th of the Major 7 chord.

Playing them, it seems that the sus2 chords can replace Major or Minor and still sound great (probably moreso on the Major Chord than the Minors, but I think both functioned well)

Sus4 chords of course worked great replacing minor chords, on major chords, there was a certin amount of tension between the 7th and 4th (I left the 7th in on the sus chords)

But it retrospect, I think they will all work.

However, a sus4 will sound more at home replacing a Minor chord (or Dominant), and a sus2 will sound more at home replacing a Major Chord.

At home of course does not always sound "the best" just, that, I guess the sound feels settled and resolved, not needing/wanting, to move on.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.
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