#1
I was just wondering if there is any easy way of generating counter melodies without having to look at the intervals between every note?

I notice that many bands (eg Dragonforce) simply take the melody and play it on the relative minor scale (assuming the melody is in a major scale), but wouldn't this mean that the only intervals are M/m 2nds?

Edit (forgot to actually ask a question ) : How is this musically valid compared to the stuff in music theory books such as this one http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/6/3/4/16342/16342-h/16342-h.htm
A metal band?
Gear:
A Guitar with an LFR > Korg Pitchblack > Behringer EQ > Hardwire CM-2 Overdrive Boss SD-1 > Hardwire CR-7 Chorus>
Orange Tiny Terror >
LzR Engineering 212 cab

My other amp can run Crysis
Last edited by FischmungaXTR at Sep 9, 2008,
#2
I can't say I made sense of that question (through my own tiredness, not through your explaination), but I'd suggest looking at some classical composers maybe? I know of shredders (such as Yngwie Malmsteen) who draw ideas from classical music. Bach chorales are a good point of study for harminisation of a melody.

I hope that helped in some vague way.
#3
diatonic thirds
Quote by ratracekid111
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#4
Quote by punkrock4all
diatonic thirds

Generally, using the same interval to harmonise with is quite boring.

TS, if you don't want to think about intervals for every note, just get someone or somthing (a recording, guitar pro, whatever) to play the melody and just experiment till you find something that's sounds good over it.
#6
Quote by 12345abcd3
Generally, using the same interval to harmonise with is quite boring.


+1, however just 3rds can be exactly what the song needs, i recommend studying some theory so you can determine what harmonies will sound good with what you're doing and the direction the song is going in. you can harmonise in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths and 6ths easily. however 2nds and 7ths tend to sound more dissonant than you'll want
#7
So I suppose the answer is there is no easy way of creating counter melodies that obey all the rules in that ebook I linked to?
A metal band?
Gear:
A Guitar with an LFR > Korg Pitchblack > Behringer EQ > Hardwire CM-2 Overdrive Boss SD-1 > Hardwire CR-7 Chorus>
Orange Tiny Terror >
LzR Engineering 212 cab

My other amp can run Crysis
#8
Quote by FischmungaXTR
So I suppose the answer is there is no easy way of creating counter melodies that obey all the rules in that ebook I linked to?

I suggest you forget the "rules" (though i haven't read it) and just experiment till you find something that sounds good.

Rules in theory are usually not actually rules, so much as guidlines about what often sounds good.
#9
The Ebook is a book on Counterpoint.
Quote by first line of the first lesson in the ebook
Counterpoint is the art of combining two or more melodies of equal melodic individuality.


Obviously what Dragon Force are doing is not counterpoint since the two melodies they are combining do not have "equal melodic individuality". It is the same melody played in diatonic thirds.

Both are "theoretically correct" ways of harmonizing a melody. It's just that it can be harder to write two melodies that will harmonize beautifully together than it is to play the same melody a set interval higher. Hence treatises were written setting out rules on how to go about writing contrapuntal melodies.

You can not describe what Dragonforce are doing in terms of the rules of counterpoint because it isn't counterpoint. It's harmonizing a melody in diatonic thirds

If one is melodically inclined there is much that can be learned from studying counterpoint. However, once you learn it you need to treat what you have learned not so much as rules that must be followed but as useful tips or guidelines. Unless of course you are studying it for a class and will be tested on it.
Si
#10
^Ah, thanks for explaining. So what dragonforce are doing is taking one melody and harmonising it to make it sound bigger.

I belive the early opeth albums would be examples of counterpoint?

I suppose a more famous example would be the song Iron maiden, but is this still counterpoint?:
Gtr 1
 -------------------------|
 --------------5----------|
 --2-2--0-2-0----5--------|
 ------------------5-7-5--|
 -------------------------|
 -------------------------|

Gtr2
 ---------------------------|
 --------------5------------|
 --5-5--4-5-4----5-4--------|
 ---------------------------|
 ---------------------------|
 --------------------5-3-0--|
A metal band?
Gear:
A Guitar with an LFR > Korg Pitchblack > Behringer EQ > Hardwire CM-2 Overdrive Boss SD-1 > Hardwire CR-7 Chorus>
Orange Tiny Terror >
LzR Engineering 212 cab

My other amp can run Crysis
#11
Well it's not strict counterpoint. It kind of looks like a mix between the two methods of harmonizing. The first five notes are just harmonized in diatonic thirds again. I'm pretty sure in counterpoint using that many of the same interval in a row is not acceptable because the melodies lose their individuality.

It is rare to see strict counterpoint in rock. When you do see examples of counterpoint you can almost be certain it will break some or a lot of rules.

It is often used when you see the bottom line and top lines of a piece of music doing independent things such as one kind of famous song that I've stripped right down here...

|------5-7-----7-|8-----8-2-----2-|0---------0------|----------------|
|----------------|----------------|----------------|0-1-1-----------|
|----------------|----------------|----------------|----------------|
|7-------6-------|5-------4-------|3---------------|----------------|
|----------------|----------------|----------------|2-0-0-----------|
|----------------|----------------|----------------|----------------|
I'm sure this doesn't follow strict rules of traditional counterpoint but you can definitely see two independant melodic ideas working in harmony to form a very effective passage of music. You can see here how each line is independant of the other and it is clearly not a case of taking one melody and harmonizing it at a set interval above or below.

At the start you can see the two lines begin by moving in opposite directions This is the easiest way to give two melodies independence - have them moving in "contrary motion".

I'm no expert in counterpoint though. If you decide to do the forty exercises in that treatise I'm sure your grasp of counterpoint will improve far beyond mine and you will easily recognize when it is used and when it isn't used in any music you come across.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 9, 2008,