Lets say we are in C

I have the chords in the key of C Maj like this

C Dm Em F G Am B diminished

below each chord in this order I have the shapes/modes that I can use over each chord

Ionian on 8th fret for the C - Dorian on tenth fret for Dm
Phrygian on 12 for Em - Lydian on 1st fret for F - Mixolydian on 3rd fret for G
Aeolian on 5th fret for Am and Locrian on 7th fret for Bdim

is this correct?
I know they are not positions. They are the same notes from one scale
each in a different order. What I am asking is

regardless of shape this works right?

Ionian for C mixolydian for G aeolian for Am Phrygian for Em ect ect
Last edited by newguitars08 at Sep 14, 2008,
who cares, just play
Quote by jdF250
who cares, just play
He cares. *reported*

Quote by newguitars08
I know they are not positions. They are the same notes from one scale
each in a different order. What I am asking is

regardless of shape this works right?

Ionian for C mixolydian for G aeolian for Am Phrygian for Em ect ect
I have no idea what you're trying to say, so I will tell you to learn the major scale again.
If your playing over a chord progression in C major, then no, you cannot play D Dorian or A Aeolian, as neither of those notes are your tonal center. If you were to try and play in one of them, it would just be C major.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
Quote by The_Sophist
If you were to try and play in one of them, it would just be C major.
This is a vital statement to understand. The chords dictate the mode, not pattern, shape, position, yada yada yada.
What I mean is if you have a song in the key of C and you play C/Em and G

for solos ect you could use C ionian over a Cmaj and E Phrygian over a Em Chord
and G Mixolydian over a Gmaj chord ect
The best way (I find) to play around with modes is to come up with simple chord progressions that accent the notes that make the mode unique. I say simple because modes are harmonically weak, so if it is too complex then it will probably resolve to the relative Ionian or Aeolian.

ex. The unique note in Lydian is the sharp fourth, so you will want to express this note in your chord progression.

In F Lydian

F major - G Major

This is a small little vamp that works well for Lydian, because the third of the G chord is the sharp fourth, where as in a major scale is would be a G minor.

Hope I helped.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
These modes I am asking about are all the C maj scale but by
playing them as positions allows you to play all over the neck instead
of just playing the C maj shape. although the c maj shape goes all over the fretboard
I think its not a bad idea to learn the mode "shapes" and look at it like that also
Quote by newguitars08
although the c maj shape goes all over the fretboard
I think its not a bad idea to learn the mode "shapes" and look at it like that also
Each scale and mode exists all over the neck. Play your little F Lydian shape at the 1st fret, even call it the "home" position of F Lydian, but if you play it over a C major progression, it is C major and not F Lydian.
The benefit of learning boxes depends on how serious you are about music, and since you seem interested in modes, you either want to impress people with the fancy names, or you actually like music.

In the latter case, boxes are not a good idea, as they limit you, and will also become VERY boring VERY quickly.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Each scale and mode exists all over the neck. Play your little F Lydian shape at the 1st fret, even call it the "home" position of F Lydian, but if you play it over a C major progression, it is C major and not F Lydian.

Correct

and if in GMaj

Lydian would be a C lydian right?
Quote by The_Sophist
The benefit of learning boxes depends on how serious you are about music, and since you seem interested in modes, you either want to impress people with the fancy names, or you actually like music.

In the latter case, boxes are not a good idea, as they limit you, and will also become VERY boring VERY quickly.

I wouldnt limit myself to this one thing this is just "one" aspect
What in your minds is the best way to learn/teach maj/minor scales and modes
for beginners?

I know you have the lesson sig but what do you think?
What would be your method and why?
BTW Thank you for your thoughts people and answering all my questions!
How well do you know your basic theory?

This gives me an idea for a interesting thread

Beginners shouldn't be learning about modes, just as you shouldn't teach differential equations in a 1st grade class

So your thoughts are stick with the formulas first? WWHWWWH and so on?
Quote by bangoodcharlote
How well do you know your basic theory?

Beginners shouldn't be learning about modes, just as you shouldn't teach differential equations in a 1st grade class.

People hype modes too much, they are simple and incredibly easy to understand. we learn about modes in theory 1 in high school.
newguitars08,

bangoodcharlote is right. Learning all those "Mode" positions all over the neck is just learning the notes of the C major scale all over the neck. Calling each one a mode is just confusing and a popular teaching habit I have come to detest because it is incorrect.

Yes you could play a different "mode position" over each chord in a C Major progression but that is limiting since over a G chord you only have one position to play over that chord. Besides in the end you're just playing the C major scale anyway - as bangoodcharlotte and others have already mentioned.

You need to do two things to play modally. First rename all your positions. Call them form 1 form 2 form 3 etc or first position second position, or call them albert fred and hubert - anything other than the modal names.

Next take the diatonic chords from the major scale and arrange them in a way that creates a different tonic centre. Then build on some melodic ideas around that tonic centre using the notes of the major scale. All of a sudden you're playing modally.

For example you might take the diatonic chords of C Major C Dm Em F G Am Bdim and arrange them in a way that identifies G as the tonal centre. Then you start Albert Fred Hubert in C (all the different forms of the major scale) in different positions around the neck using all the notes but building your melodies around that G tone. Hey presto you're playing G Mixolydian, congratulations.

Though many will tell you modes are harmonically weak I prefer the term harmonically challenged. Though I do enjoy exploring modes in a harmonic context, and think it is a worthwhile enterprise - it takes attention and care to create a complex modal harmony.

If you want to explore the mode melodically it can be quicker and just as effective to create a simple two chord vamp that outlines the modal note. If you don't know what a modal note is - you need to do more study on what modes actually are and tell your teacher that what he has taught you has mislead and confused you on what modes actually are.
Si
Quote by newguitars08
Lets say we are in C

I have the chords in the key of C Maj like this

C Dm Em F G Am B diminished

below each chord in this order I have the shapes/modes that I can use over each chord

Ionian on 8th fret for the C - Dorian on tenth fret for Dm
Phrygian on 12 for Em - Lydian on 1st fret for F - Mixolydian on 3rd fret for G
Aeolian on 5th fret for Am and Locrian on 7th fret for Bdim

is this correct?

Hey, yes this is correct, in terms of learning the root positions of the modes as they relate to the parent major scale. I see what you're doing.

There isn't a problem with the way you're approaching this, cuz it's a great way to familiarize yourself with the fretboard.

But, if you want to play modally, it will require a certain type of progression.
Last edited by mdc at Sep 15, 2008,