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#1
quick question for all the builders (and pseudo builders/dreamers)

if a multi-scale fretboard were available as a standard order item, how many people would be interested?

also, if this fretboard were available, how many people would like to purchase the fretboard and bridge as a kit for when they build their guitars?

I have the ability to produce these kinds of kits and was wondering if there would be a market for it...
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#3
Wait a minute, multi scale? Explain, I won't be able to get to sleep tonight if I don't find out. It would be like one of those questions which you have to find out, or you'll be like, very tired the next day. I mean, very TIRED!
Cam Sampbell's my hero
#4
i would do it without a doubt, infact i plan too sometime in the future, i can get the fretboard its just the bridge really novax are the only place that does them these days
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#5
Yes please explain the multi-scale thing. I think i know what you're trying to describe, and it sounds cool, but it'd be a good idea to explain more. And pics would help too, for visual people like myself.
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#7
EDIT: I'm retarded. I know what you're talking about now.
All my photobucket pics are dead so no links to my guitar build threads.
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Last edited by zeroyon at Sep 18, 2008,
#8
If you could garuntee the accuracy of the fret spacing, custom scale lengths on demand (you must also take into account that the perpendicular/vertical fret can be moved so that needs to be specified on order) and a good quality bridge I would definatly be interested.


Quote by soul_taker
Do multi-scale tune-o-matics or floating trems exist?

It would be pretty much impossible to have a multiscale that didnt have individual string bridges, the TOM and FR would have to be huge to accomodate the different scale length and intonation space


Quote by Lil Macker
Wait a minute, multi scale?

A multiscale is a guitar that has more than one scale lenth, a longer scale for the low strings and a shorter scale for the high strings, and it has slanted frets. This allows you to have more strings on your guitar while keeping tension bearable e.g. if you had 25.5" scale on an 8 string the low f# would be useless, and if you had 28" scale only the high e string would be pretty tight.




Quote by dogismycopilot
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Quote by littlemurph7976
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#9
you can get custom kahlers for multiscales, ive seen them on a few 8's.
if its a service for this your offering you need to check it out more, there are ALOT of measurements to take into acount before cutting ( alot more than standard freboards), eric over at PG offers the service for an extra $100 (£50) to his fretboard services, its the bridges that are a pain to get ahold of.
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#10
I understand this whole thing now. I just looked at some Ormsby threads and saw the fretboards.
Schecter Gryphon; Ibanez AEG20E
Peavey Rage 158 ; TRAYNOR YCS50
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#11
Quote by nuthinbuttrubl8
quick question for all the builders (and pseudo builders/dreamers)

if a multi-scale fretboard were available as a standard order item, how many people would be interested?

also, if this fretboard were available, how many people would like to purchase the fretboard and bridge as a kit for when they build their guitars?

I have the ability to produce these kinds of kits and was wondering if there would be a market for it...


Novak has a patent on fan frets. If you sell them without paying the license fee (is was something like $150 per fretboard last time I checked but that was years ago) then you can get into a lot of legal and financial trouble. Technically you can even get in trouble for building a guitar for yourself that uses fan frets. I once wrote him asking for permission to build a fretboard with fan frets for my own personal use and experimentation and he wrote back with a nice note inviting me to pay his standard fee for using “his idea” that he stole from luthier that predate him by over 100 years. I also threatened legal action in the same letter.

The moral of the story is that Ralph Novak is a dill hole that likes to take money from people for an idea that wasn’t his and if you use this hundred year old idea you have to pay him for it.

I hate that guy.

Edit: Just thought I would add that the whole Novak thing is only an issue for people building in the USA or people selling the the specific guitar within the USA. Most countries are smart enough to not grant a patent for such a load of crap.
Not taking any online orders.
Last edited by CorduroyEW at Sep 18, 2008,
#12
what I would do is standardize on a few bass/treble scale spacings and either sell individual saddle pieces or make special bridges for this type of guitar.

as far as fret spacing, i would cut the slots on a CNC so the accuracy would be .0002"

I'm unsure about pricing as of yet... figure the board would be available between $50 and $75 depending on wood used (give or take) and I'd have to figure out what it would cost to make the saddles (I'd probably do everything in house, custom order). I have access to some CNC equipment right now and am planning on buying my own very soon... I was offered a great deal on a CNC and would really love to find a niche market to make/sell product

Edit:

the good thing about patents is if you change some specifics about the product, the patent becomes useless... there's more than one way to skin a d*ck
Support your local luthier!

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I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#13
I'm thinking this might be too hard to sell as a standard to lots of people, because it all depends on how wide the fretboard is, and the taper used etc, you would have to draw a line on the fretboard to show exactly where the high e string needs to sit to be at 25.5" etc.




Quote by dogismycopilot
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Last edited by Absent Mind at Sep 18, 2008,
#14
By the looks of it, Ormsby has a trademark on multiscale, what exactly is trademarked i don't know, but he does put (TM) next to the word "multiscale" lately.
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#15
like i said... more than one way to skin a cat just trying to see what the market would be like... i'll figure out the rest as i go along
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#16
i'm going to trademark the word penis (tm)... now you all have to pay me to say penis (tm).

i've looked up trademarking... it costs more to trademark a word than it does to register a business entity... such a load of crap. he probably just trademarked the term multiscale... that's why i put a dash in between... it's different now

edit:

how about this for a term... progressively emendating node in scale... penis (tm)
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
Last edited by nuthinbuttrubl8 at Sep 18, 2008,
#17
Quote by LarryTheSecond
By the looks of it, Ormsby has a trademark on multiscale, what exactly is trademarked i don't know, but he does put (TM) next to the word "multiscale" lately.

I doubt he'll be able to trade mark the words multi scale, even if he does, we'll just call them compound scales, or lots of scale lengths, or poly scale...

actually Im going to go and trademark poly scale, that sounds cool




Quote by dogismycopilot
Absent Mind, words cant express how much i love you. Id bone you, oh yea.

Quote by lumberjack
Absent Mind is, as usual, completely correct.

Quote by littlemurph7976
Id like to make my love for Neil public knowledge as he is a beautiful man
#18
Quote by nuthinbuttrubl8
what I would do is standardize on a few bass/treble scale spacings and either sell individual saddle pieces or make special bridges for this type of guitar.

as far as fret spacing, i would cut the slots on a CNC so the accuracy would be .0002"

I'm unsure about pricing as of yet... figure the board would be available between $50 and $75 depending on wood used (give or take) and I'd have to figure out what it would cost to make the saddles (I'd probably do everything in house, custom order). I have access to some CNC equipment right now and am planning on buying my own very soon... I was offered a great deal on a CNC and would really love to find a niche market to make/sell product

Edit:

the good thing about patents is if you change some specifics about the product, the patent becomes useless... there's more than one way to skin a d*ck


Take a look at the patent. Any fretboard that has more than 1 scale is coverd under the patent. It's in no way specific which is one of the reasons it bugs me.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=yektAAAAEBAJ&dq=ralph+novak
Not taking any online orders.
#19
^^ look up at my last edit... penis fretboard FTW
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#20
i'll find a way around this... don't you worry
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#22
pmed
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#24
hey man if you can do multiscale boards and bridges, im definatly down for getting some
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VOX AD30VT
#25
i would love to get some in the future
Just call me Bobby
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#26
Ralph Novak owns the patent on FANNED FRETS, which also covered pretty much anything with angled frets. He went to the trouble of getting these style guitars into the mainstream, despite it being 'prior art' 400 years ago. If it wasn't for Ralph Novak, no one would be building fanned fret, or multiscale guitars.

Ralphs patent ran out last year. He no longer charges for licensing. If someone thought that a once off $150 fee for the rights to use an idea they wouldnt have developed themselves, is too expensive, then, well, I guess thats just too bad.

(for the record, i use a different, more accurate way of laying out the frets, than Ralph's system)

I own the trademark on MULTISCALE MULTI-SCALE and MULTI SCALE (or any other way you want to describe/spell it). This is a BRAND NAME and not a patent. Like COCA COLA is a brand name, but doesn't cover the secret formula for making it, or KFC is the brand name, but doesn't cover the eleven secret spices. I cant stop someone from building fanned frets, or guitars that look like they have Multiscale fretboards, but i can stop people using the NAME. Im so sick of my ideas being copied out there Ive decided to take action to protect MY BUSINESS.

I guess its the same if cord's business name Rock Monkey was used by someone else. Im sure he would be pissed off, and want something done about it after all the hard work he has put in building up that brand. And he deserves that right, but he doesn't have that right without a trademark (registered business or trading names are lower on the pecking order than trademarks).

Im not worried about someone who is making a one off, and using the name to describe it. But my lawyers will be all over someone who sells a guitar, guitar parts, or even guitar merchandise, and refers to the name Multiscale without prior permission.

I don't even get a say, i just get a letter at the end of each month, with a list of people they have taken action against (and if someone has been taken to court, i get a cheque!). Of course, it is then up to that person if they choose to keep using it and face the full force of the court system, stop using it, or agree to the FREE licensing plan. I think that FREE LICENSING is a pretty damn generous offer really, but I'm sure some one is going to want to stand all high and mighty and doesn't realise how much it will cost him when he gets dragged through court... defense lawyers for trademarks tend to be a lot more expensive than your average lawyer, and when they lose the case, they are forced to pay for the winning legal team costs too (plus a sum for 'trademark dilution'). I doubt too many lawyers will take on a defense case against trademark infringement though... its pretty much a no win situation. Of course, some lawyers don't care if they don't have a chance to win, they get paid anyway, right?

There is a heap of stuff on wiki if you want to learn more about trademarks, its pretty interesting stuff.

Regards,
Perry Ormsby

Pevious builds:
HERE!
#27
^ you better start attacking the tons of people that have used this term over the years to describe this type of fretboard. all i was asking was if people would be interested in purchasing a fretboard and bridge kit so they could make their own progressive scale, multiple/staggered/offset/wacky scale... whatever... something for those who don't have the know-how or the tools to perform such a task. plus the fee was for every single time someone made a "fanned fret" guitar using his "technology". trust me perry, i don't want to infringe on your business... you've been a help to me and i appreciate it and have always said thank you when you gave me a straight answer to anything i asked you.
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#28
Quote by nuthinbuttrubl8
^ you better start attacking the tons of people that have used this term over the years to describe this type of fretboard. all i was asking was if people would be interested in purchasing a fretboard and bridge kit so they could make their own progressive scale, multiple/staggered/offset/wacky scale... whatever... something for those who don't have the know-how or the tools to perform such a task. plus the fee was for every single time someone made a "fanned fret" guitar using his "technology". trust me perry, i don't want to infringe on your business... you've been a help to me and i appreciate it and have always said thank you when you gave me a straight answer to anything i asked you.


Trust me, my lawyer has already handed me a detailed list of people infringing the trademark, AND how much can be made from suing any single one of them. I could retire tomorrow if i went that way, but that isnt the person i am. I make my own living, not relying on fighting with others.

If you want to sell any multiscale branded or named product, you'll need to apply for the rights to use the name under license. At the moment, its free to do that (once approval has been given of course). My lawyer is trying to make me change that policy (eg: ask for a fee), but it isn't his decision to make.

Regards,
Perry Ormsby

Pevious builds:
HERE!
#29
nah, i wouldn't call it multiscale... i'd call it something else . I only used multiscale because it's a term everyone is familiar with and would read the thread for feedback.

lawyers will do anything to make a buck... i'm in the wrong line of work... even if they f*k up they still get paid... ridiculous...
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#30
Quote by Absent Mind
I doubt he'll be able to trade mark the words multi scale, even if he does, we'll just call them compound scales, or lots of scale lengths, or poly scale...

actually Im going to go and trademark poly scale, that sounds cool


this guys got the knowledge when it comes to new names for the system lol
EPIPHONE LES PAUL
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#31
What you can do to get around that patent, I think, is to do it as a service. You can either have people send in their fretboards, or you can have some in stock that you sell as is, or for an additional price, they can have fanned frets. I think this gets around that kind of stuff, but I am not positive.

Anyway, how much are you talking about charging per fretboard?
#32
Probably $50-75 depending on wood type... Just because the fretboard is "fanned" doesn't mean it's worthy of a massive markup... I like being fair with people. I'm also considering designing a bridge system to use with this type of setup. For right now, the side of the board may be limited but I'd consider more types in the future of there's enough of a demand.

I just wanted to get out there and see what the demand would be like... I'm seeing some warm and fuzzy feedback so I may consider performing this type of service (as a fretboard/bridge kit). Maybe I'll be able to sell the whole kit for like $200 or whatever... that would be pretty cool...
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#33
Like I said before I think you need to address the large amount of custom specs that go with a multiscale fingerboard,

if you were going to sell a set I recommend a slotted nut, fretboard with centerline marked and the two scale lengths marked on it, and a bridge, that way the lines can taper from the nut to the bridge correctly and that puts a string spacing standard in place so people know how to design the rest of the guitar around the nut/fretboard/bridge.

You would also need to design a differnt set for 6, 7 and 8 strings.

may be I'm over complicating things...




Quote by dogismycopilot
Absent Mind, words cant express how much i love you. Id bone you, oh yea.

Quote by lumberjack
Absent Mind is, as usual, completely correct.

Quote by littlemurph7976
Id like to make my love for Neil public knowledge as he is a beautiful man
Last edited by Absent Mind at Sep 19, 2008,
#34
as I said i was just looking for feedback

now that i've gotten a lot of positive responses, I can continue forward with my plan.

and yes, I should have explained i would do one for 6 7 and 8... the rest will be worked out as plans progress.
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#35
aiiiight

look foward to what you come up with




Quote by dogismycopilot
Absent Mind, words cant express how much i love you. Id bone you, oh yea.

Quote by lumberjack
Absent Mind is, as usual, completely correct.

Quote by littlemurph7976
Id like to make my love for Neil public knowledge as he is a beautiful man
#36
Quote by Absent Mind
If you could garuntee the accuracy of the fret spacing, custom scale lengths on demand (you must also take into account that the perpendicular/vertical fret can be moved so that needs to be specified on order) and a good quality bridge I would definatly be interested.


It would be pretty much impossible to have a multiscale that didnt have individual string bridges, the TOM and FR would have to be huge to accomodate the different scale length and intonation space


A multiscale is a guitar that has more than one scale lenth, a longer scale for the low strings and a shorter scale for the high strings, and it has slanted frets. This allows you to have more strings on your guitar while keeping tension bearable e.g. if you had 25.5" scale on an 8 string the low f# would be useless, and if you had 28" scale only the high e string would be pretty tight.

Ahhh, I get it, I was just wondering how you actually did it.

Sounds cool actually.
Cam Sampbell's my hero
#37
here is the measurements ive found on pg that you need to fanned fret:

"total nut width
number of strings
inner & outer scales for the outside strings
bridge string spacing
which fret is perpendicular to the centerline"

hope that helps you man, this would be a great service, and i would be the first to order from you haha
EPIPHONE LES PAUL
IBANEZ S SERIES CUSTOM
VOX AD30VT
#38
^ only thing that would suck would be shipping costs from the US to the UK
Support your local luthier!

Timpson Guitars and TDM Pickups rock ;D

I make guitars and pickups. I also make sh*t that'll blow you the f*k up as well as things that will rebuild you - I have the technology
#39
^ not really, my fretboard shipment cost is £15, ive bought some emg's that were £16, and my GFS pickups were £8 haha, i dont mind paying it.
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IBANEZ S SERIES CUSTOM
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