#1
I'm trying to write a fast past Neo-classical shred instrumental similar to the things that Cacophony did (Concerto, Speed Metal Symphony, Go Off!)

So how do I write one? I can think of all the solos in my head, but im stuck with helping my friend with his parts. We want this album we're writing to be incredibly technical. But all we end up writing is an epic 7 minute long improvised solo full of diminished and minor arpeggios and long flowing Harmonic Minor runs.

So guys, how do I write a Concerto?

1980s Ibanez RG470
Epiphone G400
Peavey Vypyr 30
Vox DA5
Vox Cybaby Wah
Monster Cables
and Red Jazz IIIs



I donated 2020 grains of rice

http://freerice.com/index.php
#2
try to remember the licks you do, harmonize everything (you know a guitar in a higher pitch etc...)
and separate your song by sections, that helps when i write songs that are basically a long solo.
Quote by Vagabond21
Ewww the searchbar is a slut, it gets used everyday...

Quote by tremeloud

The brain says "hey, lets be friends" and the dick says "hey, lets get those clothes off, eh?"

Quote by Nilpferdkoenig
Yeaaaaaah, Huuuuuhuuuu, Saaaaaaah and MASTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR are all Hetfield memes.
#3
Asking how to write music is sort of ambiguous. It's what we talk about everyday here.

Are you both playing at the same time? Dual guitar solo? Are you planning on playing different things but one higher than the other (diaphony)? Or are you planning on writing completely different parts (polyphony)? Or are you actually planning on writing a real melody (that sounds like a classical thing) instead of a guitar solo?

If your playing diaphony, have your friend play in octaves or perfect fifths with you.

If your planning on using polyphony, than I think its time you researched counterpoint. Make sure your theory savvy before this though.
#4
Quote by demonofthenight
Asking how to write music is sort of ambiguous. It's what we talk about everyday here.

Are you both playing at the same time? Dual guitar solo? Are you planning on playing different things but one higher than the other (diaphony)? Or are you planning on writing completely different parts (polyphony)? Or are you actually planning on writing a real melody (that sounds like a classical thing) instead of a guitar solo?

If your playing diaphony, have your friend play in octaves or perfect fifths with you.

If your planning on using polyphony, than I think its time you researched counterpoint. Make sure your theory savvy before this though.


I always thought fourths sounded better. But either way i guess
#5
SMS and Concerto use polyphonic melodies at every nook and cranny.


So load up on the theory wagon.
hue
#6
Quote by sock_demon
SMS and Concerto use polyphonic melodies at every nook and cranny.


So load up on the theory wagon.
Actual polyphony, like counterpoint? Truth be told, I've only heard a couple speed metal symphony songs.
#8
I'm not sure if what you have in mind constitutes as a concerto.
A concerto is "A friendly competition between a solo instrument and an orchestra". But maybe there are other concerto types besides this and concerto grosso,etc.

But either way, check out Concerto Suite for Electric Guitar and Orchestra (Malmsteen).
#9
Thanks guys, you've been a great help. I'm also talking about the song Concerto by Cacophony not writing an actual concerto.

1980s Ibanez RG470
Epiphone G400
Peavey Vypyr 30
Vox DA5
Vox Cybaby Wah
Monster Cables
and Red Jazz IIIs



I donated 2020 grains of rice

http://freerice.com/index.php
#11
^ k, koo

Also I greatly agree with your sig, it IS the answer to everything

1980s Ibanez RG470
Epiphone G400
Peavey Vypyr 30
Vox DA5
Vox Cybaby Wah
Monster Cables
and Red Jazz IIIs



I donated 2020 grains of rice

http://freerice.com/index.php
#12
you search for answers that dont exist..
becker and friedman are out of this world..
my only suggestion is:
try to team up with another guitarist,maybe the two of you could create nice stuff
#13
^
You suggest something i've already done, I have another guitarist and I know Jason and Marty are the gods of twin shred guitar. I just want to create a song similar in song structure.

1980s Ibanez RG470
Epiphone G400
Peavey Vypyr 30
Vox DA5
Vox Cybaby Wah
Monster Cables
and Red Jazz IIIs



I donated 2020 grains of rice

http://freerice.com/index.php
#14
try to get really high with your friend,and grab a guitar..
magic usually happens !!
worked for me,i wrote some nice riffs when i was high
#15
Quote by becker89
try to get really high with your friend,and grab a guitar..
magic usually happens !!
worked for me,i wrote some nice riffs when i was high
MT does not condone the use of drugs.


How much experience do you have with songwriting? You're not going to write this generation's SMS just because you can play fast and like shred music; you need to write basic music before you attempt diffucult music.
#16
i wasnt talking about drugs
meant for booze
a few beers,little bit vodka,and im in writing mode
#17
Know how some guys say: theory is for losers, simply play what you feel?
I think players like Becker and Friedman are the ultimate in what those guys think they can achieve without theory, only thing is they are aware of theory (in some form or other). What I'm tryin to say is, to come up with anything remotely comparable to Concerto (most played song on my Ipod btw ) or SMS, you need to have real passion and/or experience behind your note choice. Picking a scale and applying patterns or sweep picking to it won't result in epicness, the feeling you try to get behind it does. that's what jumps out at me when I listen to Concerto and such.

So this is what I like to do, get your mood straight in your mind before you try to come up with anything. try to express it with a melody. expand it as much as possible! come up with variations and permutations or whatever and keep them in mind for later. I think songs like this are created more in the spirit of jamming than in plotting out each note. Just find a melody or theme that you think best represents what you wanna say, it can be anything, like the happy melodies in Concerto or the frantic mayhem intro of SMS. Just expand on it from there and keep the spirit of the jam in it, because if you try to get mechanical it will probably fail.
#19
^ having written and recorded an entire album under the influence of hallucinogens and pot i still don't condone using any substance (aside from the occassional cig) theres a special 1% of people who can do this and have it be magic, the other 99% of people just sound awful. a good example of that 1% is pink floyd. the question then becomes "are you pink floyd?" the answer is generally no.
#20
Quote by becker89
i wasnt talking about drugs
meant for booze
a few beers,little bit vodka,and im in writing mode
Alcohol, and really all drugs, severely inhibits your ability to compose or play anything good.

Ead: Becker knew his theory very well. One needs to if one wants to compose music like SMS.
#21
Get a bit of paper. Right down what you imagine in your head you want the song to be like. For instance intro...you could write slow atmospeheric intro building to section 1 which is going to be even darker but faster more intense etc etc.
This way you are not just hoping for glory...you have a set idea(which of course you don't need to stick to) which you can then build progressions and melodys etc around. So you wont be sitting going 'ok I have this pretty cool sweeping section but now where do I go...if you have it roughly mapped out its just a matter of figuring out how your going to convey whatever emotion/atmosphere it is that you have planned on the paper and then figuring out how to make it work with the song.
This is by no means a quicklist to write a classic. This is just a way to get you out of fumbling around in the dark trying to compose a song by luckily coming up with something cool. I highly doubt the latter is the method by which Friedman and Becker composed such classics as SMS and Concerto.
Andy
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote

Ead: Becker knew his theory very well. One needs to if one wants to compose music like SMS.


I know that, what I'm trying to say is basically learn it and forget it. their knowledge of theory is so engrained into their playing that whatever they want to sound like is basically at their command, I'm sure. If the majority of us were to try make something equally epic while worrying about what key we're in, what accidentals to use etc I don't beleive it would sound as natural. I think Al Di Meola said something like that
#24
Theory does not dictate what you can and can't play; it merely describes what was played. I can see how one could fall into the trap of "oh, damn, that note isn't in key so I can't use it," but that goes away as you learn MORE theory. Moreover, a guitarist who is good enough to play songs as diffucult as SMS should know better than to fall into that trap.

Additionally, Al Di Meola is an arrogant prick, but that's for another day.
#25
I did not say it's dictating what we can and can't play. I'm saying when you are aware of theory like Becker and Friedman were, you're probably not conciously thinking in terms of theory. More like just being aware of what sounds like what you want to play. I don't think lesser musicians such as ourselves are at that level of familarity where we instinctively know which note to hit next in a 16nps run being sweeps or whatever.

I think we're on the same page but it seems like we have different ideas.
#27
Quote by z4twenny
^ having written and recorded an entire album under the influence of hallucinogens and pot i still don't condone using any substance (aside from the occassional cig) theres a special 1% of people who can do this and have it be magic, the other 99% of people just sound awful. a good example of that 1% is pink floyd. the question then becomes "are you pink floyd?" the answer is generally no.
change that percentage to 100%. Pink floyds best songs were written sober.

Songwriting is a mental exercise. It takes alot of brainpower to write more than just a simple melody over a lame overused chord progression (or chugged metal riff). But it also requires you to be relatively relaxed, but still attentive.
If you're really good at handling your liquor and can function normally after a drink or two, maybe a sip of vodka/tequila is a good thing.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Additionally, Al Di Meola is an arrogant prick, but that's for another day.
But he's still damn awesome. I came during one of his songs. For reals.
#28
Whils I dont condone drugs etc. Megadeth IMO wrote their best stuff when they were full of drugs. They lost alot of aggression they had when Dave went clean.
Also alot of early jazz artists like Mile Davis for isntance were full of heroin most of the time and still wrote exceptional music.
Andy
#29
Quote by Don Rickles
Thanks for this thread, I'm a Cacophony fan now.



You're very welcome.
hue
#30
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
Whils I dont condone drugs etc. Megadeth IMO wrote their best stuff when they were full of drugs. They lost alot of aggression they had when Dave went clean.
Also alot of early jazz artists like Mile Davis for isntance were full of heroin most of the time and still wrote exceptional music.
Andy
In my darkest hour was written on pot. Alot of the songs from killing is my buisness was written when he was jacked up. Probably his best stuff but only because he wasnt trying to conform to anything, I doubt that it was good because heroin. Unlike his later albums, where he lessened the old-school thrash metal thing. I really like his new album though, which was written clean.

Miles Davis's best stuff was written clean. Keep in mind I listen to jazz for some chill music so understandably my favourite album is blue in green. I cant stand his fusion stuff and it's only the rare early song that I like, like the stuff he did with coltrane (Giant steps). But Coltranes and Davis best stuff was written sober.
And Dizzy never did heroin and I doubt he did pot. Probably the best bop guy ever. I could never really get into Charlie Parker or anyone like that (he once jacked up so bad he couldnt play, pity he died at 34)
#31
Quote by MulanoSG
I'm trying to write a fast past Neo-classical shred instrumental similar to the things that Cacophony did (Concerto, Speed Metal Symphony, Go Off!)

So how do I write one? I can think of all the solos in my head, but im stuck with helping my friend with his parts. We want this album we're writing to be incredibly technical. But all we end up writing is an epic 7 minute long improvised solo full of diminished and minor arpeggios and long flowing Harmonic Minor runs.

So guys, how do I write a Concerto?


one thing to consider. When the guys in cacophony came up with their Concerto they were both good enough to know how to do it. They didn't have to ask how to do it on an internet forum.

So maybe you guys should accept were you are and write within your skill level.
shred is gaudy music
#32
Quote by GuitarMunky
one thing to consider. When the guys in cacophony came up with their Concerto they were both good enough to know how to do it. They didn't have to ask how to do it on an internet forum.

So maybe you guys should accept were you are and write within your skill level.

+1.

Just keep working at it and enjoy the journey for now, you'll get there one day if you work at it.

Listen to lots of classical music, though, and you'll definitely find some interesting influences.
#33
Quote by Andy_Mclaughlan
Megadeth IMO wrote their best stuff when they were full of drugs.
Just because they were drug addicts at the time does not mean they composed their material whilst high.
#35
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Just because they were drug addicts at the time does not mean they composed their material whilst high.


They struggled to get things done in the studio because they were all too jacked up. Gar Samuleson used to disappear on drug binges meanwhile Chris Poland was too busy selling off their equipment to buy heroin. Also, Dave Mustaine who arguably wrote some of Metallicas best stuff(early), got kicked out of Metallica amongst other things but because he was always too high and drunk. Again I dont condone drugs...but there were periods when these guys jsut were never sober. Same goes for Guys like Ozzy...writes amazing tunes but cant remember years of his life
Andy
#37
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Just because they were drug addicts at the time does not mean they composed their material whilst high.

there is quite a high likelihood.... that they did. Being addicts, is there any reason to assume that they took a break from their addiction just to write? I would say possibly, but probably not.
shred is gaudy music
#38
I don't see why you couldn't compose while impared...IMO, it can actualy help with the creativity.
Quote by dcdossett65
Life is too short to worry about this crap.

Who.

Cares.
#39
Quote by demonofthenight
change that percentage to 100%. Pink floyds best songs were written sober..

the wall, i'm pretty sure a large volume if not the whole album was written while full of god knows what. im assuming a variety of acid, coke, pot, liquor and handfulls of assorted pills of various sizes,shapes and colors . same goes for dark side of the moon.

but i digress, getting off topic here. i find that unfortunately to me the songs that draw me in the most are often obviously written on too much of something.

and i'm with Guitarmunky, sure maybe these people weren't hammered the whole time but i bet they were for the majority of the writing process. thats like trying to tell me "hendrix was stone cold sober for all his writing and only got messed up on stage, same goes for ray charles and kurt cobain" i just don't buy it. i don't suggest it to people, most aren't that lucky/gifted or however you want to word it.

Quote by HLrocker
I don't see why you couldn't compose while impared...IMO, it can actualy help with the creativity.

because it impairs motor skills. i hate to say it but i've heard what a lot of people have written while high and it just sounds awful, often boring and bland (if even played remotely well) often far to repetitive and depending on what a person is on while writing it can actually dampen their creativity.
Last edited by z4twenny at Sep 25, 2008,
#40
Quote by HLrocker
I don't see why you couldn't compose while impared
Maybe because you're impaired...

Alcohol effects neurotransmitters in the area of the brain that controls motor movement.

I shouldn't be that vague. Not because I want to explain it better, he can go read some neuroscience if he wants more information, but I have a test on that stuff coming up! And I don't know it!