#1
I bought this book about guitar in general and in a part about modes the author said two things that I founded very interesting:


1. If chords are not exetended beyong the natural triad, THERE IS A TENDENCY TO PERCEIVE PENTATONIC SCALES OVER THEM. (what?)

2. In C Ionian, when played against C chords, F is the avoid note, unless F note is included in the chord. (what?)
#2
Quote by oldDB
I bought this book about guitar in general and in a part about modes the author said two things that I founded very interesting:


1. If chords are not exetended beyong the natural triad, THERE IS A TENDENCY TO PERCEIVE PENTATONIC SCALES OVER THEM. (what?)

2. In C Ionian, when played against C chords, F is the avoid note, unless F note is included in the chord. (what?)


not sure what is meant by 2., but i think one is saying that pentatonic scales are commonly used over triads.
#3
well for 2. he's saying that you don't want to play an F note over a C chord because the F will clash with the E (major 3rd of a C chord)

and I don't really know what he's talking about in 1.
#4
1. I think he's saying that if you're playing a song in a maj key, with no wierd chords or anything, that the ear tends to like pentatonic scales played over them.

2. um, I guess he means that if you're playing a song in C, and it's a C chord, don't play F, unless it's played in the C chord, in which case it would be a Csus. not sure I totally agree, but I think that's what he's trying to say.
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#5
For #2, the fourth sounds dissonant to a lot of people over a major chord (it clashes with the third) that's why the major pentatonic scale doesn't have it.
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#6
Well, the C major chord (correct me if I'm wrong) starts off on the note C, and then takes the major third, being an E.

So yeah, you don't want an E note, and an F note, playing at the same time. Unless the F is up a couple of octaves...

...so yah, ignore that geezer, and play what sounds right to you.

Your ear's a brilliant tool for music, many musicians forget that.
#7
So F clashes with E (3)? Why is the B note (7) taken out of pentatonic also?

The thing is that he also says that if you play a D Dorian over D chords all notes are safe. (???)

Thank you
#8
generally the 4th (F) of an Ionian scale is not that strong. i wouldn't say avoid it but other notes are much more natural to use like the 3rd or 5th. "properly" you are not supposed to use notes a semitone away from the tonic triad like B or F but this is a very general rule
#9
Quote by oldDB
So F clashes with E (3)? Why is the B note (7) taken out of pentatonic also?

The thing is that he also says that if you play a D Dorian over D chords all notes are safe. (???)



this is only correct if the tonic is C and the supertonic is D
#12
^ indeed.

if you play a F note over a C major chord, you're just making it a Cadd11 chord. it's as simple as that.
#13
Quote by RCalisto
^ indeed.

if you play a F note over a C major chord, you're just making it a Cadd11 chord. it's as simple as that.


He is correct though. Over a maj7 chord, the fourth is generally considered dissonant. Very often, is it raised for this reason.
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#14
"Over a maj7 chord, the fourth is generally considered dissonant"

Ok but how about a regular MAJ chord?
#15
^ like, yah. b2 between E and F = bad. Obviously, with various voicings and such this isn't such a big deal, and many guitarists do it, but it is still officially an avoid note in jazz.

The second point is correct, unless the major chord already contains an 11th, it's considered dissonant.
#16
Quote by oldDB
"Over a maj7 chord, the fourth is generally considered dissonant"

Ok but how about a regular MAJ chord?


It would still be considered dissonant. Keep in mind that all "dissonant" means is that it's unstable, and seeks to resolve elsewhere. If that's the sound you're going for, go for it. The important thing is that you're conscious of the effect it produces.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
Cool what about a scale that has a 3# instead of a 3b. Is it still dissonant??
#18
Quote by oldDB
Cool what about a scale that has a 3# instead of a 3b. Is it still dissonant??


I cannot for the life of me think of any scenario in which a "#3" would actually function as a #3. It doesn't exist.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#19
Quote by oldDB
Cool what about a scale that has a 3# instead of a 3b. Is it still dissonant??


You've missed something here.

The reason an F is an avoid note against C major is because the F and E clash because they're a minor second (a semitone apart).

If you have a #3 or b3 then the F would be a tone away, and it would no longer be an avoid note. Although regarding the #3, it's pretty difficult to think of reasons you would ever have one in a scale.
#20
so if the note is a semitone from 1, 3, 5 is a 'be careful note'(???)
#22
Quote by oldDB
so if the note is a semitone from 1, 3, 5 is a 'be careful note'(???)


not be careful, if you know what you are doing it's fine, the reason you don't play a semitone interval harmoniously is because it creates a dissonance that desires to be resolved. For instance(assuming you're in Am) playing a E major chord before an Am chord would sound good because the G# would help draw the chord to the A. However if you play a G# note at another time before you resolve to the A it will sound like poop because of that desire to resolve to the A, it especially sounds bad if it's not at the end of a bar. This is only one example, but I think it's the easiest one that helps in understanding why some notes sound good or bad at different times. The 4th and the 7th or the 2nd and 6th depending on whether you're in major or minor respectively tend to want to draw the ear to the note that is one semitone away, it's as if playing these notes makes the ear want to hear the other note that is one semitone away. If you rest on one of these notes, or play them in harmony it will create a dissonance that is unresolved, rhythmic context really influences how these things sound. I hope that helped.
#23
People it doesn't say don't play the F note when the C triad chord is in play. It says it is an avoid note. If you sustain it for more than a couple of beats it won't sound too good. But if you use it as a passing note then it adds a lot of color because it is also the 'escape' note that disputes the C's hegemony by making C it's supporting fifth.

F is the 'father' of all notes. If you go up a perfect fifth up each time you'l produce all 7 diatonic notes. If you try doing the same thing with C you'll produce every note except F before going non diatonic.

EDIT: I don't use F and C as spesific sets of frequencies but as in solfege.
Last edited by Alex Zyka at Sep 27, 2008,
#24
F is the 'father' of all notes. If you go up a perfect fifth up each time you'l produce all 7 diatonic notes. If you try doing the same thing with C you'll produce every note except F before going non diatonic.


It would only produce the notes diatonic to C major, and that doesn't make it anything special. Its use and sound is determined entirely by the context in which it is placed.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#26
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That's an interesting observation, though: Start on a note and keep ascending in fifths and you get the Lydian mode of the starting note.


That's the principle of the lydian chromatic concept. Still, anything seems exceptional if you phrase it the right way. That doesn't mean that lydian is a more logical basis for music than the major scale is.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#27
Quote by Archeo Avis
That doesn't mean that lydian is a more logical basis for music than the major scale is.
Of course not, but I think that's more because the major scale has been the standard for 100s of years.

It's akin to our number system. Why can't we call 3 "two" and 2 "titan" and count "one, titan, two, four, five?" It's just because we've been using our integer system for 1000s of years.

Edit: On second thought, the major scale is the lease dissonant scale I know, so I guess it makes sense that we would make it the convention.
#28
It's not my observation. I learned it in the process of the circle of fifths. I'm not suggesting lydian is the more stable scale, it certainly isn't with that tritone over its tonic. It's the major, then the minor(maybe with the occasional M7 in cadences) and then all the other modes.

But try to construct a diatonic scale (not stricty the major version do-re-mi...) going up fifths and stop when you've reached 7 notes. Rearrange them and there you go, the major scale. It's interesting though that the first note you started with was the 4th degree of this major scale or you may call it the F note of the Solfege or equivalently the lydian scale.
Last edited by Alex Zyka at Sep 27, 2008,
#29
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Edit: On second thought, the major scale is the lease dissonant scale I know, so I guess it makes sense that we would make it the convention.


You forgot the pentatonics.
#30
Quote by Alex Zyka
You forgot the pentatonics.
You don't typically build chords from pentatonics, and they weren't building chords from pentatonic scales 100s of years ago when this all was developed (in the West at least).
#31
No, but they are the most consonant scales. Though diatonic scales are more common because of their more dissonant nature that makes them more expressive. What is life without spices afterall?
#32
Quote by Alex Zyka
No, but they are the most consonant scales. Though diatonic scales are more common because of their more dissonant nature that makes them more expressive. What is life without spices afterall?
The minor and major pentatonics lack a note 1/2 step below the root, and that note leads so nicely back to the root.
#33
Quote by Alex Zyka
It's not my observation. I learned it in the process of the circle of fifths. I'm not suggesting lydian is the more stable scale, it certainly isn't with that tritone over its tonic. It's the major, then the minor(maybe with the occasional M7 in cadences) and then all the other modes.

But try to construct a diatonic scale (not stricty the major version do-re-mi...) going up fifths and stop when you've reached 7 notes. Rearrange them and there you go, the major scale. It's interesting though that the first note you started with was the 4th degree of this major scale or you may call it the F note of the Solfege or equivalently the lydian scale.


? If I understand the process then the last interval is a tritone, i.e.

C G D A E B F

Rearranged within an octave will produce the major scale on C

Interestingly the tritone is to the note that is the fourth scale degree, and the note that the whole thread is about.
#34
Quote by R.Christie
? If I understand the process then the last interval is a tritone, i.e.

C G D A E B F


That's not the idea. You're supposed to go in all perfect fifths: C G D A E B F#. That yields C Lydian.
#35
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That's not the idea. You're supposed to go in all perfect fifths: C G D A E B F#. That yields C Lydian.


Yes, I think we are observing the same thing, but Alex said that results in the major scale. Probably a typo. To get the major you must terminate with tritone.


This was the way Antonio Losada, my teacher, described the construction of the major scale in a book on scales for guitar that he wrote which was published by Alberts (Australia).
I thought it quite unusual and something perhaps more commonly taught in European systems (he studied at Madrid Consrvatory).
#36
But try to construct a diatonic scale (not stricty the major version do-re-mi...) going up fifths and stop when you've reached 7 notes. Rearrange them and there you go, the major scale. It's interesting though that the first note you started with was the 4th degree of this major scale or you may call it the F note of the Solfege or equivalently the lydian scale.


But it only seems significant because of the way you phrase it. Why is a scale built by stacking perfect fifths more significant than one built by stacking major seconds, or minor sixths? Why is stacking identical intervals significant at all? It's like saying "Guess what!!! Guess what license plate number I saw today! 5U2-888! Out of all the license plates in the world, do you know what the odds are that I would pass by that EXACT one?!?". Anything can sound significant if phrased properly.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#37
Quote by Archeo Avis
But it only seems significant because of the way you phrase it. Why is a scale built by stacking perfect fifths more significant than one built by stacking major seconds, or minor sixths? Why is stacking identical intervals significant at all? It's like saying "Guess what!!! Guess what license plate number I saw today! 5U2-888! Out of all the license plates in the world, do you know what the odds are that I would pass by that EXACT one?!?". Anything can sound significant if phrased properly.


Who indeed knows that's a good argument to put to the numerologist kooks.
But semantics aside, most consonant intervals are consonant because of an underlying physical relationships between their frequencies, and perfect fifths certainly have a closer mathematical relationship than seconds etc. There might be something in it, might not be too.

Edit : there are bells going off in mind about the construction of the pythagoran scale and his famous comma too.
Last edited by R.Christie at Sep 28, 2008,
#38
Well yes, Pytha (and other guys) "fabricated" scales while going up in fifths/down in fourths
INteresting thing about Lydian, but at least you have to reorganice the notes first (you don't get a F-C-G-D-A-E-B scale)...
That is only taking diatonic scales in mind though, you can make the chromatic scale of F-F#-C-C#-G-G#-D-D#-A-A#-E-E#-B-B# when going up in fifths too, etc...