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#1
A guitarist I've been working with wants me to do a song with him, singing it.

One problem- it's Freewill by Rush. I'm Christian. This song promotes atheism.

What's the best way of refusing this song politely on moral grounds?
#2
Just tell him it goes against your religious beliefs. If he's a good friend he'll understand.
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#3
yes i agree with the guy above
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#4
Quote by Metfan1991
Just tell him it goes against your religious beliefs. If he's a good friend he'll understand.



Until now I've kept religion out of the band.....
#5
I thought Christians were supposed to be accepting of other people's beliefs. And as far as I know, Freewill is a song about plain old free will yet still being stuck categorized by religious freaks.
#6
Atheism is a moronic belief anyway. So why promote it. Ask him to play a song that counters that like say a Christian song. After all we are allowed freewill but that is not a religion. Hope I don't come off holier than thou but really think about it. To your band mate there not you bud.
#7
I personally don't think you should be all that bothered about that song, it's not reaaally promoting atheism. It's just a cry for people to realise what they're actually doing.
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#8
just glancing over the lyrics, it seems more about determinism than and kind of atheism.vs.religion

*religion thread*
#11
Quote by Herotime
Atheism is a moronic belief anyway.


It is, by definition, a lack of belief. It makes no assertions.

TS: If you don't want to play the song, say so. If it angers him, he's a very petty man.
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#12
Quote by Archeo Avis
TS: If you don't want to play the song, say so. If it angers him, he's a very petty man.



I'm not so sure HOW he'll react...
#13
Quote by Archeo Avis
It is, by definition, a lack of belief. It makes no assertions.

TS: If you don't want to play the song, say so. If it angers him, he's a very petty man.


But they believe it!
#14
A little open-mindedness never hurt anybody.

Quote by Wiki
The song's lyrics deal with the subject of free will, emphasizing that free will is not a gift but rather a choice. He explains that man can attempt to evade the fact that he must choose, but that evasion is itself a choice. Failing to think for himself, man is left with only the sad option of following a "celestial voice" or "kindness that can kill," referring to religion and socialism, respectively.[1]

The pervasive criticism of religion and warnings against other substitutes for self-determination in the lyrics of "Freewill" closely parallel the theme of individualism found in Rush's other songs. In "Tom Sawyer," Peart states that the character's "mind is not for rent/to any god or government," again referring to religion and socialism as incompatible with independent thought and action



Quote by Herotime
Atheism is a moronic belief anyway. So why promote it. Ask him to play a song that counters that like say a Christian song. After all we are allowed freewill but that is not a religion. Hope I don't come off holier than thou but really think about it. To your band mate there not you bud.

And there goes any credibility you might have.
#15
Yeah, just tell him you don't feel comfortable singing it, he should understand.
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#16
Quote by Retro Rocker
A little open-mindedness never hurt anybody.



I don't know if you'd call it open-mindedness. Atheism and Christianity clash, somewhat.

EDIT: No, I don't want to start a religious debate.
#18
Quote by Archeo Avis
It is, by definition, a lack of belief. It makes no assertions.

TS: If you don't want to play the song, say so. If it angers him, he's a very petty man.


Then you've never actually met one. Not believing in God and being an atheist are two totally different things these days.. not believeing in God and keeping it to yourself is one thing, but atheists are obsessive bastards that won't quite bitching about how moronic Christians are. And the sad thing is, they're right. I'm a very true and faithful Christian, but I'm not one of the idiotic ones that thinks it's a deadly sin to drink alcohol or have pre-marriage sex. Atheists simply try too hard and can't accept that people don't want to view the world they do.


OK, before I get a debate started, I'm gonna get back on topic.. tell him that you don't want to play it because you don't like the song. Case closed, no religious references needed.
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#19
How offensive is it to you? If you believe that much in your faith then the song should be a non-issue.
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#21
Quote by philipp122
Then you've never actually met one. Not believing in God and being an atheist are two totally different things these days.. not believeing in God and keeping it to yourself is one thing, but atheists are obsessive bastards that won't quite bitching about how moronic Christians are.


well that's what you'd call a generalization or a stereotype, Atheists think the same things about Christians, I would know I've seen it, I've been both an Atheist and a Christian at different points in my life.
#22
Then you've never actually met one. Not believing in God and being an atheist are two totally different things these days.. not believeing in God and keeping it to yourself is one thing, but atheists are obsessive bastards that won't quite bitching about how moronic Christians are. And the sad thing is, they're right. I'm a very true and faithful Christian, but I'm not one of the idiotic ones that thinks it's a deadly sin to drink alcohol or have pre-marriage sex. Atheists simply try too hard and can't accept that people don't want to view the world they do.


You don't know what atheism is, do you?

Not believing in God and being an atheist are two totally different things these days


What? Atheism is a lack of belief in God (not a belief that there is no God, which is, epistemologically, very different)
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Sep 28, 2008,
#24
I personaly belive its stupid not to play it, just cause it "promotes" something different. its like me not playing Powerslave, because it promotes Egyptian gods, but i dont belive in god.
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#25
That's a difficult one. As an atheist myself I should imagine he's thinking something like 'Blimy, it's just a song, it's not like anyone's gonna take it seriously or anything!' and I can kinda see his point, but then it's not really fair to make you sing songs about something you feel so strongly against. It's not like you're making him do songs with Christian lyrics is it?

How many 'normal' people would happily do a racist or a homophobic song?

Expecting a Christian to do a song that advocates atheism is just as repulsive.
We may not all agree with each others beliefs, but we should at least respect those beliefs, as long as those beliefs are not harmful to others like racism and homophobia are.

Fassa Albrecht, stick to your guns, explain to him that you find these lyrics to be as repulsive as racism and homophobia would be to him and that if any of your Christian freinds were to hear you singing such lyrics it may even cost you their friendship.
Ask him how he would feel singing the lyrics to 'Onward Christian Soldiers' for instance.

Quote by Herotime


Atheism is a moronic belief anyway. So why promote it.


Honestly, is there any need to turn this into a predjudiced slagging match?
If you wish to partake in that sort of behaviour, go to the religious debate thread and I'll happily meet you there and debate you into a logical quandary.

This is the bandleading section where a level head is required to sort out the problems of relationships between band members and other band related stuff.
Yes, religious debate is healthy, but only in it's rightful place where everyone agrees beforehand that the gloves are off and things will be said that may upset them.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Sep 28, 2008,
#26
If you really don't want to do it then just be straight with him, tell him you don't want to do a song against atheism.

However, maybe you could just try doing the song and just ignoring the lyrics you don't like, or even changing them.

Also, if he is the sort of person who would get really mad over this then maybe you should consider whether you really want him in your band.

PS; I was really ready to come in here and tell you to get over your damn religion but then i remembered how much it sucked to have to sing christian songs in school (and do chirstian prayers) so i see where you're coming from.
#28
Quote by philipp122
Then you've never actually met one. Not believing in God and being an atheist are two totally different things these days.. not believeing in God and keeping it to yourself is one thing, but atheists are obsessive bastards that won't quite bitching about how moronic Christians are. And the sad thing is, they're right. I'm a very true and faithful Christian, but I'm not one of the idiotic ones that thinks it's a deadly sin to drink alcohol or have pre-marriage sex. Atheists simply try too hard and can't accept that people don't want to view the world they do.


OK, before I get a debate started, I'm gonna get back on topic.. tell him that you don't want to play it because you don't like the song. Case closed, no religious references needed.



i laughed out loud because i am an atheist and thats what i think inside my head. but at least i dont act on those thoughts , i am respectful for people's ignorance .

if only you understood atheism a little better you would understand why we cringe our teeth on religion.
#29
The song Freewill is about one simple thing God actually created, freewill. The song doesn't support atheism nor christianity, it is choosing what you want to do with your life.

Although, tell your friend you don't want to do the song. Obviously, a song a band covers must be accepted by all members, say you don't want to do it and the song is thrown out the window.
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#30
Quote by Fassa Albrecht
A guitarist I've been working with wants me to do a song with him, singing it.

One problem- it's Freewill by Rush. I'm Christian. This song promotes atheism.

What's the best way of refusing this song politely on moral grounds?


quit the band and don't play rock music - all rock music is the devil's music and you should really accept that fact.

btw - the song is great, you should just get over it and play it.
#31
Y'know... there is a HUGE difference between not wanting to do a song simply because you don't like it and not wanting to do a song because you're uncomfortable with what it represents - particularly when you are the singer, and therefore the one who is delivering the message.

If it was a case of the former, I'd say suck it up, but expect your mates to offer the same compromise when the tables are turned.

However... in this case... I think you should communicate to him that you don't want to do the song, and explain why. Your reasons are well-founded. I'm not suggesting that I am philosophically on the same side of the table as you, but that from your point of view, I can entirely understand why you would have a tough time with it.

Anyone who is not only a friend, but a respectful bandmate, should see the difference between the two scenarios and cut you some slack.

Besides, even though it is a great song, it is not a great song to cover. Your average teenager/club-goer will find it only vaguely familiar at best.

CT
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Last edited by axemanchris at Sep 28, 2008,
#32
Stop being so closed minded... I sometimes cover death metal songs but i dont refuse to play them because the lyrics are about mutilating and raping bodies...
Referring to Victor Wooten
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#33
Difference is:
1. In death metal, most people can't understand what you're saying anyways. The 'Satan's Cookie Monster' shtick does a great job of obfuscating lyrics. Rush on the other hand is all about lyrics and they make sure they are prominent in the mix.
2. Death metal at its best doesn't take itself too seriously, so you can get away with singing about stupid stuff. When people start to take the whole thing too seriously is when they start to come across as funny and they're not even trying to be - that sort of comedic cliche stereotype thing that everyone likes to laugh at. Rush on the other hand take themselves quite seriously, because their lyrics are such an important part of their compositions.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#34
Quote by axemanchris
Y'know... there is a HUGE difference between not wanting to do a song simply because you don't like it and not wanting to do a song because you're uncomfortable with what it represents

Absolutely, when Sabbath reformed with the original line up, Bill Ward had a real moral problem with some of the songs because they advocate drug use (especialy Sweet Leaf) and he'd just been through an absolute nightmare trying to beat his drug dependancy. He eventualy did the songs and justified doing them to himself by saying that they were a part of who he was and that he wouldn't want to disappoint an audience who had paid good money expecting them to perform these songs.

Quote by axemanchris

- particularly when you are the singer, and therefore the one who is delivering the message.

Yeah, that really is the kicker here, almost everyone who listens to the lyrics of a song assumes that the person singing the words is in agreement with the sentiments of the song.

Quote by axemanchris


However... in this case... I think you should communicate to him that you don't want to do the song, and explain why. Your reasons are well-founded. I'm not suggesting that I am philosophically on the same side of the table as you, but that from your point of view, I can entirely understand why you would have a tough time with it.

Couldn't agree more.
Quote by axemanchris

Anyone who is not only a friend, but a respectful bandmate, should see the difference between the two scenarios

This is what it's really all about, a band should all respect each others personal beliefs, and if those beliefs are completely different, then they should agree to disagree and stay well away from the subject in future.
The relationship between fellow band members can quite often become more than just 'friends', it kinda becomes something that's verging on 'family'.
Now, I'm an atheist with opinions that I like to debate, in the correct place, but my sister is an equally opinionated Christian, we each take part in religious debate but we'd never debate each other, because were 'family', and as such we love each other and neither of us wishes to say something that would upset the other.
When we were younger, we squabbled like hell about it, but now we're older, we've matured. And that's the key to running a successful band, being mature enough to have a family type of respect for each other, that way arguments that are damaging to that whole important 'team' aspect of a band hardly ever happen.
Quote by axemanchris
and cut you some slack.

For some reason, that term makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
Quote by axemanchris

Besides, even though it is a great song, it is not a great song to cover. Your average teenager/club-goer will find it only vaguely familiar at best.

CT

A very good point that's well worth considering.

Good post chris.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Sep 29, 2008,
#36
Good advice here on both ends, of course the band should be understanding of your views, so don't hesitate to clearly express them. On the other hand, I'd reconsider the song lyrics if I were you, I don't think it promotes athiesm. Religous skepticism and spiritual authenticity as a Christian are not mutually exclusive, if that were the case every sect that exists as a result of some type of idiological reformation (every currently existing Christian) wouldn't be a Christian. In fact, by challanging the status quo of orthodoxy and coming out on top, you become a contemplative Christian, and have added more sincerity and authenticity to your belief... gotta fall before you rise right? Anyway, I guess this line of argument should really be reserved for the only religon thread, sorry got carried away.

Do please keep us informed on how things go down.

edit* I saw I got way too general, and should have just gave some specific advice on the method of talking about it.

If you remain aganist playing the song the path of least conflict would be sitting down one on one with the band member who is pushing this song the most. Clearly laying out your objection in a level headed way. Be prepared to do one of two things depending on both of your personalities: 1)dodge getting into any kind of religious discussion as I found myself falling into above, or 2) be ready to justify exactly why you think the song supports athiesm, and have good textual evidence and sound logic to back it up as it doesn't seem as a real good interpretation of the song to me, and might not to your bandmate either. Obviously path 1. is less conflictory and you should shoot for that.
Last edited by dullsilver_mike at Sep 29, 2008,
#37
Quote by Herotime
Atheism is a moronic belief anyway. So why promote it. Ask him to play a song that counters that like say a Christian song. After all we are allowed freewill but that is not a religion. Hope I don't come off holier than thou but really think about it. To your band mate there not you bud.



I'm not even atheist and I find that offensive.
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#38
Your friend should be sensitive enough to realise you would be uncomfortable playing this song. Tell him this
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#40
Quote by Herotime
Atheism is a moronic belief anyway. So why promote it. Ask him to play a song that counters that like say a Christian song. After all we are allowed freewill but that is not a religion. Hope I don't come off holier than thou but really think about it. To your band mate there not you bud.


Well, you do. Im a devout christian and I can stand up and say that this entire statement is bullsh*t.


Personally, Ive got no problem with 'Freewill'. I dont think it advocates atheism. But you cant promote something you dont believe in. That, to all of you 'drugs sex and rocknroll' real hardcore rockers, is selling-out. There is a time when you can take a hit for the good of the band but you gotta learn whats more important to you.

The Sabbath reunion is good example. RHCP no longer plays anything live that directly advocates drug use, nor anything from One Hot Minute or pre-Blood Sugar Sex Magick, with very few exceptions. For a long time time Linkin Park wouldnt use profainity in anything they did because two of its members' religious convictions. The slip came when they did Wish by Nine Inch Nails at the Rock Am and things havent been the same. I dont say this often but, take a lesson from LP. Let a cover slip by and things may begin to change.

Show respect. Bottom line.
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