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#1
Well, I was thinking about it today and I don't know what to think. Do you guys think insurance companies denying procedures and denying some people health care denies them life? I mean in the Declaration of Independence (yes I'm aware that has no law in it) it states that there are certain unalienable rights. These rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I see it as very arguable that if an insurance denies a claim such as open heart surgery by saying a previously existing condition or something that denies the right to life and something should be done about that. Does our (United States) Constitution say anything about us having the right to life and stuff like that or is just the Declaration of Independence?
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#3
i would think the Constitution would have something like that in it but i never thought about it...

if no one on here has the answer i can ask my goverment teacher in class tomorrow
Quote by carmel_l
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#4
I think it is because that the declaration has no law in it like you stated. If it were in the constitution, then it would probably be different
#5
Quote by cm_punk_fan
i would think the Constitution would have something like that in it but i never thought about it...

if no one on here has the answer i can ask my goverment teacher in class tomorrow


Could you do that because if it does I want to know why noone has taken this to supreme court. The only way I can possibly think you could justify that is by saying that one person's right to life interferes with this company's pursuit of happiness. To me though that wouldn't be a very good argument considering that is what an insurance company is supposed to do.
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#6
The government doesn't deny people working harder as young people to be able to get a good job and afford health care.
That's my opinion.
I take it you're talking about affordable health care (which we get in Canada for free)
#7
well, by the insurance company not covering the expenses of an operation or medication is not meaning they are denying your right to life. they are just not going to offset the cost. no one said that you can not receive treatment.

thats how i see it.
#8
Quote by Skierinanutshel
well, by the insurance company not covering the expenses of an operation or medication is not meaning they are denying your right to life. they are just not going to offset the cost. no one said that you can not receive treatment.

thats how i see it.


But if you can't afford it, you're not going to receive it. It's a de facto death sentence in many cases.
#9
Quote by Skierinanutshel
well, by the insurance company not covering the expenses of an operation or medication is not meaning they are denying your right to life. they are just not going to offset the cost. no one said that you can not receive treatment.

thats how i see it.


yeah i was gonna say something like that^^^

if you get a healthcare plan, you know what it will cover. if it doesnt cover open heart surgery, thats not the company's fault. and you can still get the surgery, it will just cost a crapload
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#10
Quote by Skierinanutshel
well, by the insurance company not covering the expenses of an operation or medication is not meaning they are denying your right to life. they are just not going to offset the cost. no one said that you can not receive treatment.

thats how i see it.


Well, yeah but them denying you coverage makes it impossible for you to receive said operation. So therefore they are interfering with your right to life based on your social class which is one of the things we tried to get away from.
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#11
Quote by InanezGuitars44
yeah i was gonna say something like that^^^

if you get a healthcare plan, you know what it will cover. if it doesnt cover open heart surgery, thats not the company's fault. and you can still get the surgery, it will just cost a crapload


Not always most things like open heart surgery it has to be okayed by the company after your already on. They can deny you through many loopholes. If they can find a loophole in which to deny you they will. Actually, they have people on the pay role that just look for reasons to not pay for your operation.
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#12
No I do believe you can still get the operation if you don't have the money, but you'll be paying out of your ass for the rest of your life.
#13
Quote by sneaky_snake
No I do believe you can still get the operation if you don't have the money, but you'll be paying out of your ass for the rest of your life.


So you should basically be poor for your entire life because of a medical condition over which you have no control?
#14
Quote by sneaky_snake
No I do believe you can still get the operation if you don't have the money, but you'll be paying out of your ass for the rest of your life.


Yeah and then they are interfering with your pursuit of happiness. So they are hitting on one of your rights either way you look at it.
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#15
i've been thinking about this...

the constitution has the bill of rights as the first 10 amendments right

* Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

to me that means that the insurance companies shouldn't be able to deny you coverage, but that's just my interpretation

oh and just a reminder guys don't turn this into a flame war so it doesn't get closed, keep it civil and orderly(like the religion and political threads)

TS you might wanna add that^ in your original post in big red letters
Quote by carmel_l
Frenchy's red.
Finally, true communism will ensue.
I think
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#16
Quote by cm_punk_fan
i've been thinking about this...

the constitution has the bill of rights as the first 10 amendments right

* Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

to me that means that the insurance companies shouldn't be able to deny you coverage, but that's just my interpretation


Nice, I should have thought of number 9.
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#18
Instead of worrying about this. Be at peace with the thought that everybody has their time here for a while, then they go. Trying to stop that harder and harder is futile and immature.
#19
Quote by Skierinanutshel
actually, if you believe you have a good debate here, get in contact with your local/national senator/house member. its actually a lot easier than what you would think, but will require some time/patience on your part.


Well, do you think I have a good argument? I'm sure that they wouldn't really listen unless alot of people said the same thing.
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#20
Quote by Muzikh
Instead of worrying about this. Be at peace with the thought that everybody has their time here for a while, then they go. Trying to stop that harder and harder is futile and immature.


Why not have more time? It's pointless to just accept death when it happens. More time means more happiness and more experiences. Yes I also do realize it is futile to stop death eventually but it isn't hard at all to put it off.
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#21
All the constitution is for is figuring out who will have the power, how many will have it and when they will be elected. The bill of rights is interpreted so loosely now, it wouldn't matter if it was mentioned.
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#22
Quote by tayroar
Well, do you think I have a good argument? I'm sure that they wouldn't really listen unless alot of people said the same thing.



if you can find several actual reports of where someone lost their life due to not having insurance coverage, then yes it can be deemed a "good argument". also, if you can have several doctors (not a citizen petition - those really dont do much good until later in the process) back you up on this with their opinions on the matter, than that is good too.

you cant just say "i think its wrong because blah-blah-blah"
#23
Quote by jmilli2
You can't blame the insurance companies if you're going for the financial argument. You have to blame the hospital for charging for the operation. Then if you go down this route the hospitals will just close because they run at a loss. All this leads back to should the government provide free health care like many other countries do... like here in the UK.


Yeah I realize where the argument leads. I was just starting with that. Not too many people have really commented but yeah I was prepared to take it there.
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#24
Quote by Skierinanutshel
if you can find several actual reports of where someone lost their life due to not having insurance coverage, then yes it can be deemed a "good argument". also, if you can have several doctors (not a citizen petition - those really dont do much good until later in the process) back you up on this with their opinions on the matter, than that is good too.

you cant just say "i think its wrong because blah-blah-blah"


I loosely remember something like that happening on Michael Moore's documentary. I didn't really pay attention but I know they will deny major stuff for any loophole they can get and they had a family on there who's, I believe it was the father died because they denied him coverage. I'm not sure if that would be a good idea though because I'm not sure if they would listen to someone who uses him as a source. I know he is reliable but has many negatives attached.
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#25
Quote by tayroar
Why not have more time? It's pointless to just accept death when it happens. More time means more happiness and more experiences. Yes I also do realize it is futile to stop death eventually but it isn't hard at all to put it off.

Doesn't matter if you accept it or not, haha, it happens. Maybe it's just me, but I want nothing to do with this world and the future of it.. Yeah, it's just me.
#27
Quote by tayroar
I loosely remember something like that happening on Michael Moore's documentary. I didn't really pay attention but I know they will deny major stuff for any loophole they can get and they had a family on there who's, I believe it was the father died because they denied him coverage. I'm not sure if that would be a good idea though because I'm not sure if they would listen to someone who uses him as a source. I know he is reliable but has many negatives attached.



dont ever use michael moore as a source. stay as far away from him as possible. hes a black-hole of ignorance and not doing the correct research. (crazy libs, dont flame me) do your own research.


and yes, this does lead to the financial part of health care debates. and that goes to what the government should cover, and how much, and whatnot.
Last edited by Skierinanutshel at Oct 5, 2008,
#28
Quote by GhostReverie
what happens if you are in a car smash and you have no insurance..do you just die?


No, it is illegal for a hospital to deny you care. That is not to say the care won't be second rate, nor is it saying you will not be in debt up to your eyeballs.
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#29
edit: ^beaten to it

Quote by GhostReverie
what happens if you are in a car smash and you have no insurance..do you just die?



no, the ambulance crew does stabilize your condition the best they can and transfer you to a hospital as triage delegates for you. however, if you have no insurance, and you condition leaves you as a vegetable, then thats where problems can start. if not, you are just left with a hefty bill for treatment.


....sorry for the double post....mods dont squash me....puwwwease....
#30
Quote by Skierinanutshel
dont ever use michael moore as a source. stay as far away from him as possible. hes a black-hole of ignorance and not doing the correct research. (crazy libs, dont flame me) do your own research.


and yes, this does lead to the financial part of health care debates. and that goes to what the government should cover, and how much, and whatnot.


I know Michael Moore is ignorant I just believe that part mostly due to him having the family on there to talk.
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#31
I like this topic, but does it belong in the political topic? I ask this because I'm thinking of making a thread debating the Constitutionality of something.
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#32
Quote by KFKing
I like this topic, but does it belong in the political topic? I ask this because I'm thinking of making a thread debating the Constitutionality of something.


I have no idea I just wanted to say my thought. I made a thread and noone has complained.
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#33
that sucks balls, richest country in the world and you dont have the most basic and important thing in your society.
#34
Quote by GhostReverie
that sucks balls, richest country in the world and you dont have the most basic and important thing in your society.


Well in all honesty China is the richest and the most basic would be a sewer system, but yeah when I think about this kind of stuff it angers me.
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#35
Quote by tayroar
Well in all honesty China is the richest and the most basic would be a sewer system, but yeah when I think about this kind of stuff it angers me.


feces thrown in the street was a way of life until 100 years ago. few died from that so most basic thing is survival dude.
#37
US law states that if a person is under great risk of dieing then a hospital MUST take care of them. Until the 1980's (I think, probably the 60's) some hospitals refused to take in women about to give birth because they had no insurance. Back then it wasn't uncommon to find a dead newborn behind a hospital.
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#39
Quote by GhostReverie
feces thrown in the street was a way of life until 100 years ago. few died from that so most basic thing is survival dude.


yeah dude contagious disease doesn't thrive in super unhygienic environments or anything.
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#40
Well for one thing just because insurance denies it doesn't mean they are saying you can't get it. They are just saying they will not pay for it. Not like when they deny you they are saying if you get it you will go to jail or we will shoot you in the head.

I know more then one doctor who will treat people who really can't afford it for free.
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