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#1
yes i have tendonitis in both wrists.
i havent played for around 4 weeks now..
this is the second time ive had it. last time i did physio and ended up not playing for a few months..
it went away for a bit, but came back..

i really want to be able to play again, as its basically all i do..
i also want to be able to work out, but i dont mind if i have to give that up.
i also do karate now, but i dont think that hurts them too much..

the main pain causer i think is my work..
i am an apprentice electrician and i have to pull cables all day, which puts alot of strain on my wrists. i cant exactly quit.. but if it means being able to play again, i will definately think about it.

guitar is also a big cause i think.. i play metal music and was working alot on legato, alternate picking sweeping, all that sort of stuff.. is this an indication that i am doing something wrong? too much tension or something?

its really getting me down not being able to play anymore, what can i do to get rid of this bloody thing once and for all?

cheers guys
MD5K
IBANEZ
#2
Quote by TORSION


guitar is also a big cause i think.. i play metal music and was working alot on legato, alternate picking sweeping, all that sort of stuff.. is this an indication that i am doing something wrong? too much tension or something?



i dont really know about the electrician stuff, but for guitar i really think you have too much tension in your wrists...
dont practice all at once,...
keep taking breaks..
#3
try doing some small strech excerices on your wrists, this will teach your muscles to relax again.
try making your wrist go floppy, then slowly tighten your fingers to make a fist shape. do this 10 times on each hand (one hand at a time)
itll help a little it did when i had somthing wrong with my wrist .... because by making a fist your loosing lots of little muscles at once! xxxx
#4
I'd really advise for you to see a doctor and follow his advice. not saying people here can't contribute with issues like these but you really want to make sure you're doing the right thing and not messing up your wrists more.
#5
Quote by TORSION
yes i have tendonitis in both wrists.
i havent played for around 4 weeks now..
this is the second time ive had it. last time i did physio and ended up not playing for a few months..
it went away for a bit, but came back..

i really want to be able to play again, as its basically all i do..
i also want to be able to work out, but i dont mind if i have to give that up.
i also do karate now, but i dont think that hurts them too much..

the main pain causer i think is my work..
i am an apprentice electrician and i have to pull cables all day, which puts alot of strain on my wrists. i cant exactly quit.. but if it means being able to play again, i will definately think about it.

guitar is also a big cause i think.. i play metal music and was working alot on legato, alternate picking sweeping, all that sort of stuff.. is this an indication that i am doing something wrong? too much tension or something?

its really getting me down not being able to play anymore, what can i do to get rid of this bloody thing once and for all?

cheers guys


Whether you get better for good or not depends on a lot of factors. There are a lot of things you have to give up for awhile if you really want to heal, but if you do things right you're likely to get most of them back. I would highly recommend taking a look at this program, as well as seeing a doctor.

http://www.selfcare4rsi.com/
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 15, 2008,
#6
^ Gutsman and Guitarmunky are pretty much dead on. Get to a Dr. and follow whatever regimen they give no matter how much it sucks. cuz music is what you love right? and you'd do anything for something you love (at least thats how i view music)

as for your guitar technique being a cause of tendonitis i would consider that as a possibility. if you can afford to get a classically trained teacher to correct any technique error i highly recommend it. if nothing else watch ALOT of youtube of some of the masters and pay very close attention to everything they do, you will surely notice "oh hey, my hand isn't angled like that" or "he's holding his fingers/hand/pick etc differently than i am". taking breaks while practicing is also suggested. i'm not sure how often on end you practice, i will say that eventually you will get to a point where playing for 2 hours straight will be no big deal. but that is definitely something you build into and generally takes awhile to get there. lastly, if you anchor please stop. i don't know if you do but i know it directly affects carpal tunnel and i think it may also affect arthritis and i wouldn't be terribly surprised if it also affects tendonitis.
#8
+1 on the doctor thing. That is really your ONLY option.

Tendonitis can be treated, and may have the symptoms minimized, but it is often very difficult, if not impossible to cure it. A friend of mine even went through surgery, and another friend of mine went through two surgeries... no dice.

With tendonitis, the best offense is a good defense.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#9
Quote by axemanchris
+1 on the doctor thing. That is really your ONLY option.

Tendonitis can be treated, and may have the symptoms minimized, but it is often very difficult, if not impossible to cure it. A friend of mine even went through surgery, and another friend of mine went through two surgeries... no dice.

With tendonitis, the best offense is a good defense.

CT

Well actually, there are other options. if you have insurance, and or have enough money you definitely do want to see a doctor though, at least to get a diagnosis, But if he starts talking surgery right away or even cortisone shots I highly recommend looking into some other methods. From everything I've heard, those are last resorts that have low success rates and often make for a weaker recovery. of course if your injury is progressed to the point where you are in constant pain, they may be the right option for you.

One thing I know for sure, is that the people who have tendinitis really bad and never lose it, are the people that don't give themselves a break and continue working as if they don't have it. It's tough because you have to make a living, but if you can find any way to take a break that break just may allow you to recover.

I would do some research. Look into holistic approaches, like massage therapy or things like acupuncture. A friend of mine who has carpal tunnel has been going to massage therapy and says he has no problems now playing the guitar or using his hands in general. While this is a serious thing, don't psych yourself out, having a positive attitude is very important towards healing. A lot of people do in fact recover from tendinitis, sometimes fully. Focus on the positive stories, not the negative.

Again, I strongly recommend this program.

http://www.selfcare4rsi.com/

There is a lot you can learn from it and I'm sure you will find it helpful.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 15, 2008,
#10
or things like acupuncture.


Why not try bloodletting while you're at it?
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#12
Quote by GuitarMunky
http://www.somaacupuncture.com/tendonitis.htm

you know of any places that treat tendonitis with bloodletting?


The point is both are ridiculous concepts with no supporting evidence. Acupuncture consistently fails to deliver even marginal results in properly designed double blinded trials.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#13
Quote by Archeo Avis
The point is both are ridiculous concepts with no supporting evidence. Acupuncture consistently fails to deliver even marginal results in properly designed double blinded trials.


talk about things you know about. This isn't one of them.
shred is gaudy music
#14
Quote by GuitarMunky
talk about things you know about. This isn't one of them.


This is generally the point where you would produce properly designed studies demonstrating the efficacy of the treatment you're recommending. Not only does it consistently fail to perform any better than sham acupuncture, but there's no possible mechanism by which it could work. Recommending useless treatments to people is dangerous.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Oct 15, 2008,
#15
Quote by Archeo Avis
This is generally the point where you would produce properly designed studies demonstrating the efficacy of the treatment you're recommending. Not only does it consistently fail to perform any better than sham acupuncture, but there's no possible mechanism by which it could work.


The recommendation was to look into things. The things I mentioned are things I've become aware of either through personal experience, word-of-mouth, or things I've read about. I don't advocate any one method. I'm not a doctor, it's not my place to do that.

Putting things down that you know nothing about and making smart ass remarks isn't helpful to anyone, and really is inappropriate for a topic as serious as this. So why don't you offer some real advice or stfu.
shred is gaudy music
#16
Putting things down that you know nothing about and making smart ass remarks isn't helpful to anyone, and really is inappropriate for a topic as serious as this. So why don't you offer some real advice or stfu.


You advised him to look into a useless treatment for a medical condition. That's dangerous. Someone had to call you on it. I do happen to be extremely familiar with research surrounding acupuncture, by the way. Even if I wasn't, the burden of proof is on you to support your claims.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Oct 16, 2008,
#17
Quote by Archeo Avis
You advised him to look into a useless treatment for a medical condition. That's dangerous. Someone had to call you on it. I do happen to be extremely familiar with research surrounding acupuncture, by the way. Even if I wasn't, the burden of proof is on you to support your claims.


You don't have a clue about tendinitis, or acupuncture, you are just a smart ass punk looking for an argument. I've got better things to do, so please, stop being an idiot. Post something useful, and relevant, or don't say anything at all.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 16, 2008,
#18
GuitarMunky watch-out with those claims. That's where YOUR inner PUNK comes out.

Archeo might actually do have a clue about this shit.

However, I am an your side Munk. Where-as it may not have been proven. Undergoing acupuncture may work in a physical way somehow or the other, but mostly mental. I'm nto an expert but I've heard stories abotu how it releaves stress.

I'd like to add that yoru mental state does influence your physical state. it is connected. I speak out of personal experiences, between me, my family and friends.

Acupuncture probably works liek a placebo or something, but you have to know your gettin treated. You relax as yoru open to the treatment, and yoru chance of recovery (or supression of disease/condition at hand) are therefor enhanced.

As one last note: this discussion si endless because in reality we don't know jack shit abotu the human body, just the tip of the iceberg. The day we fully comprehend the human brain, is the day we might can have a full-of-facts-discussion about this matter.

-------------------------------------------------

On topic: Go see a doctor, look into not as rigourous alternative manners of "healing." And think positive my friend. It helps
#19
Go to the DR.
You may end up with a Hydro Cortisone injection to relieve the pain. ( this hurts like feck)

I have now been 6-7 months without pain and think I may be over my last bout.

Generally this is triggered by over straining and not warming up properly.

So for now, rest it, see the Doc, try to not over strain and grit your teeth if you get the injection cos it really fecking hurts.
#20
Quote by pandora_grunt
GuitarMunky watch-out with those claims. That's where YOUR inner PUNK comes out.

Archeo might actually do have a clue about this shit.


umm no dude. People that have a clue offer information, not smart ass remarks.

Don't tell me to watch out with those claims. If you actually read my post you will see that...... I MADE NO CLAIMS. Please, read before posting and making false accusations.

regarding acupuncture, I just listed it as 1 of many alternatives that people try. My POINT was that there are alternatives worth looking into..... thats it. LOOKING INTO means just that. YOU (the TS).... researches it and decides what is right for him.

I offered ideas based on what I've heard & know. It's amazing that you cant do that here without some immature jackass turning it into one these typical UG pointless arguments.

Quote by RichieJovie
Go to the DR.
You may end up with a Hydro Cortisone injection to relieve the pain. ( this hurts like feck)

I have now been 6-7 months without pain and think I may be over my last bout.

Generally this is triggered by over straining and not warming up properly.

So for now, rest it, see the Doc, try to not over strain and grit your teeth if you get the injection cos it really fecking hurts.


You have tendonitis ?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 16, 2008,
#21
I have tennis elbow in my right arm from too much computer, and occasionally it gives me pain and cracks when I fully extend it. Towards the end of my Army Basic Training it flared into tendinitis fairly bad, but with treatment went away for good after a few days. First step is go see a doctor, he'll know more than anyone on this forum (unless there are some doctors looking here) and will be able to diagnose you more correctly. He'll also know good exercises and stretching, as well as maybe give you some medication (I was given just regular ibuprofen) to help with the pain. Before you get there, put some ice on it, that'll help the pain and the swelling.
#22
I had tendinitis in my knee once. I don't know if it's any different in the wrist, but what I did was ace-wrap a ziploc bag of ice to my knee, with a rag between the bag and my knee. I know it would really get in the way when it's on your wrist, but keep it on there for a few hours.
#23
Quote by GuitarMunky
umm no dude. People that have a clue offer information, not smart ass remarks.

Don't tell me to watch out with those claims. If you actually read my post you will see that...... I MADE NO CLAIMS. Please, read before posting and making false accusations.

regarding acupuncture, I just listed it as 1 of many alternatives that people try. My POINT was that there are alternatives worth looking into..... thats it. LOOKING INTO means just that. YOU (the TS).... researches it and decides what is right for him.

I offered ideas based on what I've heard & know. It's amazing that you cant do that here without some immature jackass turning it into one these typical UG pointless arguments.


You have tendonitis ?

Yup I've had it.

It seems to be under control at present.

Both hands.
#24
Acupuncture probably works liek a placebo or something, but you have to know your gettin treated. You relax as yoru open to the treatment, and yoru chance of recovery (or supression of disease/condition at hand) are therefor enhanced.


That's exactly why it works, as evidenced by the fact that sham acupuncture shows just as much benefit.

Don't tell me to watch out with those claims. If you actually read my post you will see that...... I MADE NO CLAIMS. Please, read before posting and making false accusations.

regarding acupuncture, I just listed it as 1 of many alternatives that people try. My POINT was that there are alternatives worth looking into..... thats it. LOOKING INTO means just that. YOU (the TS).... researches it and decides what is right for him.

I offered ideas based on what I've heard & know. It's amazing that you cant do that here without some immature jackass turning it into one these typical UG pointless arguments.


You told him to look into a useless and potentially dangerous treatment for an illness. That's as good as a recommendation. What you did was dangerous and someone had to point it out. Suck it up.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Oct 16, 2008,
#25
Quote by Archeo Avis
That's exactly why it works, as evidenced by the fact that sham acupuncture shows just as much benefit.


You told him to look into a useless and potentially dangerous treatment for an illness. That's as good as a recommendation. What you did was dangerous and someone had to point it out. Suck it up.



^
there is no danger in making people aware of the various ways that people are finding relief from tendinitis. Your making a mountain out of a molehill.

if you read my post carefully ( and take the time to comprehend it) you'll see that the only thing I recommended ( notice the words " I recommend" are only used in this one instance) was: http://www.selfcare4rsi.com/
the only thing that's "as good as a recommendation" is an actual recommendation. making someone aware of something is not the same thing.



BTW arch, have you had any personal experience with tendinitis ?


Quote by RichieJovie
Yup I've had it.

It seems to be under control at present.

Both hands.


Well I'm glad you have it under control.

A guy that I played in a band with has had carpal tunnel for about 10 years. Unfortunately it has only gotten worse, despite numerous treatments from doctors. I don't think that he's really given himself the rest that he needs though. What happens with a lot of people, is that they get the cortisone shot and start feeling better, then go right back to what they were doing and end up causing worse and more permanent damage.

another friend of mine with carpal tunnel has been going to massage therapy for the last few months and says he's "cured". He plays gigs all the time and just recorded a CD, and apparently is having no problems. it's nice to know that some people can recover and get back to doing what they love.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 16, 2008,
#26
Quote by FERG93
I had tendinitis in my knee once. I don't know if it's any different in the wrist, but what I did was ace-wrap a ziploc bag of ice to my knee, with a rag between the bag and my knee. I know it would really get in the way when it's on your wrist, but keep it on there for a few hours.



Never Ice or heat anything for more than 10-20 min
#27
BTW arch, have you had any personal experience with tendinitis ?


Yes, though that has no bearing whatsoever on the efficacy of the treatment your suggesting.

there is no danger in making people aware of the various ways that people are finding relief from tendinitis.


Bringing up treatments with no benefit whatsoever is dangerous, yes. All treatments have risks. The reason we use them is because the benefits often outweigh those risks. When a treatment, such as acupuncture, displays no benefit whatsoever, any degree of risk is completely unacceptable and dangerous. Would you support me if I "just made a cancer patient aware" of the fact some people claim to find relief from abandoning chemotherapy in favor of the ingestion of arsenic? Of course, I'd conveniently fail to mention that arsenic has no established benefit whatsoever, and that the dangers far outweigh any benefits. But it's ok, because mentioning a dangerous and useless treatment only in the context of the claimed benefits isn't a "recommendation".
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Oct 16, 2008,
#28
Quote by Archeo Avis
Yes, though that has no bearing whatsoever on the efficacy of the treatment your suggesting.


Bringing up treatments with no benefit whatsoever is dangerous, yes. All treatments have risks. The reason we use them is because the benefits often outweigh those risks. When a treatment, such as acupuncture, displays no benefit whatsoever, any degree of risk is completely unacceptable and dangerous.



Dude, get past the acupuncture thing. you make it sound like my whole post was an endorsement of acupuncture. It clearly was not, it was mentioned as one thing that people are using to find relief. I did not personally endorse it in any way. The point of my post was to make the TS aware that there are options, and that people are finding relief through a number of different methods.

if I had said, don't go see a doctor, go get acupuncture instead, then your response would be somewhat justified. Not your smartest remark though. If you actually gave some advice and explained from experience exactly why acupuncture won't work, and then explained clearly what would be better, I could deal with that. but you instead just gave smartest remarks, and then blew the whole thing out of proportion. I think you need to suck up to that.

BTW, how did you treat your tendinitis? I think that information would be a lot more helpful. why don't you share it with us?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 16, 2008,
#29
Dude, get past the acupuncture thing. you make it sound like my whole post was an endorsement of acupuncture. It clearly was not, it was mentioned as one thing that people are using to find relief. I did not personally endorse it in any way.


I just pointed out that is was a completely useless treatment. You're the one who threw a bitch fit in response.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#30
Quote by Archeo Avis
Yes, though that has no bearing whatsoever on the efficacy of the treatment your suggesting.


Bringing up treatments with no benefit whatsoever is dangerous, yes. All treatments have risks. The reason we use them is because the benefits often outweigh those risks. When a treatment, such as acupuncture, displays no benefit whatsoever, any degree of risk is completely unacceptable and dangerous.



Dude, get past the acupuncture thing. you make it sound like my whole post was an endorsement of acupuncture. It clearly was not, it was mentioned as one thing that people are using to find relief. I did not personally endorse it in any way. The point of my post was to make the TS aware that there are options, and that people are finding relief through a number of different methods.


Quote by Archeo Avis
I just pointed out that is was a completely useless treatment. You're the one who threw a bitch fit in response.


You offered nothing but smart ass remarks, I wasn't about to put up with it. I respond respectfully to those that are respectful. I have a harder time with immaturity.

so again, how did you treat your tendinitis? how long did you have tendinitis for? do you still have it or are you fully recovered?

I think the TS would find these answers helpful.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 16, 2008,
#31
i got tendonitis in my left wrist once, but it was from curling too much. Luckily though, it didnt affect my guitar playing much.
#32
You miss the point entirely, don't you? That doesn't surprise me. Someone asked for advice regarding an injury, and you pointed him towards a completely useless and potentially dangerous treatment. It doesn't matter that your entire God damned post wasn't an endorsement of the procedure, and it doesn't matter that you were only making a suggestion. All that matters is that you recommended a useless and dangerous treatment, and threw a bitch fit the second someone pointed out that it was useless and dangerous. You need to suck it up and take being corrected like a big boy, without throwing a tantrum. Only a complete moron would respond to my post as if it were some sort of personal attack. What you did was dangerous, and I was far more civil than I should have been when responding to it.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Last edited by Archeo Avis at Oct 16, 2008,
#33
^
You are self-righteous, ignorant, and have added nothing to this thread other than starting an argument..

Seriously, cut it out.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 16, 2008,
#34
woah..
bit of tension in the air in this thread..

thanks heaps for the answers guys, im tryin to get a doctors appointment but its pretty booked out atm..

i dont know if i will try accupuncture, but i think that is actually a really good suggestion, as i would never have thought of that.

i have been putting voltaren emulgel on my wrists a few times a day, and it seems to help with the pain a little.

im glad there is a few cases that people have said they have recovered, i really want to get past this and play again.

i have read cortisone injections can weaken the tendon.. that would affect the strength in my hand, or the ability to play wouldnt it?
MD5K
IBANEZ
#35
Quote by TORSION
woah..
bit of tension in the air in this thread..

thanks heaps for the answers guys, im tryin to get a doctors appointment but its pretty booked out atm..

i dont know if i will try accupuncture, but i think that is actually a really good suggestion, as i would never have thought of that.

i have been putting voltaren emulgel on my wrists a few times a day, and it seems to help with the pain a little.

im glad there is a few cases that people have said they have recovered, i really want to get past this and play again.

i have read cortisone injections can weaken the tendon.. that would affect the strength in my hand, or the ability to play wouldnt it?


Man this acupuncture thing is really being overblown. I was in no way suggesting that you go out and make an appointment for acupuncture. I was just trying to get the idea across that there are many different treatments for tendinitis. You're not limited to cortisone shots and surgery alone. Whatever your doctor suggests is what you should do of-course. I was just throwing out some ideas that I've become aware of through people that I know, and from my own personal research.

how far along is your tendinitis ? are you in constant pain, or is it more a low level burning sensation?

btw I've heard the same about cortisone injections weakening the tendons. a friend of mine with carpal tunnel had cortisone injections. He said that the pain went away for a few weeks, but then ended up coming back even worse. Keep in mind though, that he likely did not rest as he should have. We played digs three nights a week and he does a lot of work with his hands at his job. Had he rested and let his tendon heal during that time he likely would have had a better outcome.

Another friend of mine has been receiving massage therapy and is very happy with the outcome.

You definitely want to consult with a doctor before getting any kind of treatment. In the meantime rest as much as you can and as hard as it is, Hold off on any activity that could exacerbate the injury.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 16, 2008,
#36
yea man i completely understand that u were just making a suggestion, that other guy has just taken it over the top.
i might look into it though.

uhm atm its just kinda sore if i move it the wrong way, or lift something.. i havent had any burning? typing is a little bit painful.. but i can just feel that something isnt right, if u know what i mean.

yea i would definately rest.
i figure that i may aswell not play for a few weeks, rather than the rest of my life if i damage the tendon really badly.. so yea i will definately rest it up.
i mean i cant exactly quit my job, but i can stop working out for a bit, and i havent played guitar for 4/5 weeks now, so i guess a few more wont hurt..
MD5K
IBANEZ
#37
Quote by TORSION
yea man i completely understand that u were just making a suggestion, that other guy has just taken it over the top.
i might look into it though.

uhm atm its just kinda sore if i move it the wrong way, or lift something.. i havent had any burning? typing is a little bit painful.. but i can just feel that something isnt right, if u know what i mean.

yea i would definately rest.
i figure that i may aswell not play for a few weeks, rather than the rest of my life if i damage the tendon really badly.. so yea i will definately rest it up.
i mean i cant exactly quit my job, but i can stop working out for a bit, and i havent played guitar for 4/5 weeks now, so i guess a few more wont hurt..



Yeah, there are some things you just can't give up ( like work), but if you take a break from the other stuff for a while, you'll likely be able to get back to them (though you may have to compromise a bit on how much and how often).

sounds like you're on the right track.

Good luck man, hope you have a full recovery!
shred is gaudy music
#38
This is ridiculous. Archeo, please do not reply to the latest GM posts in any fashion, as it will no doubt continue this madness.

If either of you have need to continue, or if you take issue with my post, please take do it via PM, or I will simply use my moderater powers and delete the parts of your post which do not directly help the TS.

TS, the three things that led to me developing problems were not warming up, bad posture and too much tension in my left hand.

Hopefully, after you rest, all of those issues can be corrected between the "Read me" link in my sig and the 2 and you shouldn't develop it again. I've had no problems for the last 3 years thanks to correcting those problems and habits.
#39
ok ill have a read.. hopefully i can get rid of this for good. im going to the doctors tommorrow, so yea..

how do i properly warm up?

and yeh i think i do have bad posture when i play..
MD5K
IBANEZ
#40
^ a good way to warm up is to genuinely flap your arms around until they feel warm (playing guitar to warm up won't be as quick, I promise) - and the stretch them out using the stretches in JP's "Rock Discipline" - there's actually a site that gpb recommends that I've forgotten with some good stretches on it.
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