Page 1 of 2
#1
Ok, I know that for it to be modal it needs to stress the unique intervals if the chords.

My question at the moment, would E minor and F major be E Phrygian?

Also, I'm getting sick of trying to figure out which two chords what emphasize a mode every time I want to use one. Could somebody list the basic vamps for each mode?
#2
Phrygian is just like the minor scale except for the fact it has a b2 as well. In E, that flat 2 is F. So, you'd want to use chords that emphasize that F but also chords that won't want to change the progression into the relative minor (in this case, A).


Something like Emin add9 - F sus4 (use suspended to use as less A notes as possible) - something else.

I don't know, I'm talkin out of my ass but I hope you get the idea. I gotta get ready for school.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#4
sorry to nitpick, metal's right, except neither of those chords are in E phrygian :P 9 of E is F#, so you want b9 instead. 4 of F is Bb, so you'd want #4 or B.
#5
Quote by Ead
sorry to nitpick, metal's right, except neither of those chords are in E phrygian :P 9 of E is F#, so you want b9 instead. 4 of F is Bb, so you'd want #4 or B.
You're right. Thank you. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Music theory isn't for right after you wake up
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#6
Quote by The4thHorsemen
Also, I'm getting sick of trying to figure out which two chords what emphasize a mode every time I want to use one. Could somebody list the basic vamps for each mode?


Hate to point this out - putting in this kind donkey work is what makes you awesome. Not to mention it's where you find your style and often find new material for your songs and other compositions.

Allan Holdsworth went through every single mode/scale over every chord in every progression he wrote.

Nuff said methinks.
#7
Quote by The4thHorsemen


My question at the moment, would E minor and F major be E Phrygian?




E and F are half step apart

E locrian will work with F Major.
#10
Sorry I was focusing on only one part of the question.

Ok, Em to Fmaj via Phrygian is ok then.
#11
ok, thanks. everybody.

last night when I read metal4all's response I was really tired and apparently we were on the same wavelength cuz when I tried what he said I actually played Emaddb9 and Fadd#4 lol


so, what particular intervals are unique to each mode? with some it is kinda easy for me to figure out, like
Phrygian the b2
Lydian the #4
Mixolydian the b7

but then I'm not sure, like with Dorian it's just like the minor scale but with a major 6, so I guess emphasize that?

and then Locrian is obviously the b5 and kinda stress the b2 a little bit? but I have trouble with it unless (in E again) a straight up Em7b5 and C/F# or Cadd#4
#12
Quote by The4thHorsemen
ok, thanks. everybody.

last night when I read metal4all's response I was really tired and apparently we were on the same wavelength cuz when I tried what he said I actually played Emaddb9 and Fadd#4 lol


so, what particular intervals are unique to each mode? with some it is kinda easy for me to figure out, like
Phrygian the b2
Lydian the #4
Mixolydian the b7

but then I'm not sure, like with Dorian it's just like the minor scale but with a major 6, so I guess emphasize that?

and then Locrian is obviously the b5 and kinda stress the b2 a little bit? but I have trouble with it unless (in E again) a straight up Em7b5 and C/F# or Cadd#4
Hells yeah.

Ionian: 7th
Dorian: 6th
Phrygian: b2
Lydian: #4
Mixolydian: b7
Aeolian: b6
Locrian: b5


Locrian is a bitch to work with because it wants to go a half step up to the relative major (if it was E Locrian it would want to go to F major) because Locrian is so unstable (it has the b5 and such) so it wants to move to something more consonant and with the same notes/key signature which would be the relative major.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#14
This is why modes are soooo tricky. From conversations/thread-hijackings/arguments MT has had before, I've come to the conclusion that there are 2 answers to that question.

Easy: They aren't different.

Weird: They are different.


Easy: They have the same intervals and all, they're the same and when Modes are built from them and they just have fancy modal names.

Weird: Modes are to be treated VERY strictly so if you were to play in Aeolian you wouldn't use accidentals (or as few as possible) and only use chords that really stress the unique intervals. Doing that contrasts it to key-based music in which there are a bunch of accidentals and such and more harmonic freedom.


Edit: I know there's someone that disagrees with what I just said so I'd wait to hear them out.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#15
bingo. due to the strength of ionian typically you don't have to work to make modal vamps in ionian. furthermore i think our ears typically fill in the harmonic gaps using ionian and aeolian more than any other modes (i think that's what determines their "strength").

strict aeolian is different than minor. Something being in A minor doesn't necessarily mean that E Major is outside the realms of possibility (i.e. harmonic minor). aeolian, however, does not make room for E major due to the notes contained in the mode (scale). i suppose saying aeolian is just a specification of which type of Minor key you are playing whilst simply saying "minor" allows for multiple possibilities.
#16
Quote by sisuphi
i suppose saying aeolian is just a specification of which type of Minor key you are playing
Aeolian isn't a key; it's a scale. Aside from that small error, your post is accurate.

The way (or at least a very good way) to find the chords to use in modal vamp is to identify the modal tone, such as #4 in Lydian, and play chords from the parent scale containing that note, and of course the Xmaj7#11 or Xmaj7 chord where X is any note. Discard any diminished chords unless you're trying to write an almost impossible locrian vamp; diminished chords SO want to resolve to the parent scale.
#18
Quote by gonzaw
The other day I tried writing using only locrian and diminished chords and it sounded cool....
My teeth were grinding because of the tension, but it sounded cool..
Please do share. Everyone wants to see how Locrian can be used!

Edit: If you're using fully diminished chords, you may still be writing an interesting piece of music, but it wouldn't be Locrian.
#19
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Please do share. Everyone wants to see how Locrian can be used!

Edit: If you're using fully diminished chords, you may still be writing an interesting piece of music, but it wouldn't be Locrian.


Nah, a I chord vamp of F#mb7
It actually sucks because it is the first time I tried


It is in my sig, you can tell which one it is...
#20
I have Vista, and I have yet to find a program that will unzip files. Can you post it in your profile? I'd really like to hear it; those who responded to that thread said it was really good, and I'm all for really good music.
#21
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I have Vista, and I have yet to find a program that will unzip files.


Try WinRAR.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Can you be more specific?


http://www.rarlab.com/

I'm using Vista as well, and WinRAR works just fine for me.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#24
http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm

I want something free that won't expire by Thanksgiving. Is this just wishful thinking on my part? That "RAR 3.80 for Pocket PC" sounds like what I need. All I want to do is unzip files; I can deal with other issues later.

What did you do, purchase it?
#25
Quote by bangoodcharlote
http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm

I want something free that won't expire by Thanksgiving. Is this just wishful thinking on my part? That "RAR 3.80 for Pocket PC" sounds like what I need. All I want to do is unzip files; I can deal with other issues later.

What did you do, purchase it?


Their definition of "expire" is "a pop up message that politely asks you to buy the product". You can just close it and go on using the program.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#26
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Aeolian isn't a key; it's a scale. Aside from that small error, your post is accurate.

The way (or at least a very good way) to find the chords to use in modal vamp is to identify the modal tone, such as #4 in Lydian, and play chords from the parent scale containing that note, and of course the Xmaj7#11 or Xmaj7 chord where X is any note. Discard any diminished chords unless you're trying to write an almost impossible locrian vamp; diminished chords SO want to resolve to the parent scale.


Its actually a mode
#28
Quote by ouchies
Its actually a mode
Which is a type of scale...


Edit: I just downloaded WinRAR and the song is pretty cool, though it does get resolved away from the diminished chord at the end. I think that, if expanded upon, that song could make for a good movie score.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Oct 18, 2008,
#29
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I have Vista, and I have yet to find a program that will unzip files. Can you post it in your profile? I'd really like to hear it; those who responded to that thread said it was really good, and I'm all for really good music.


Lol I don't know if it is very good

Can you upload midi to profiles?

EDIT:

Quote by bangoodcharlote
Which is a type of scale...


Edit: I just downloaded WinRAR and the song is pretty cool, though it does get resolved away from the diminished chord at the end. I think that, if expanded upon, that song could make for a good movie score.


Yeah, I wanted to expand it but got bored and resolved it to Gmaj...
Maybe later I'll continue it (it was just kind of a demo or something I wanted to try)...
Last edited by gonzaw at Oct 19, 2008,
#30
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Which is a type of scale...


Edit: I just downloaded WinRAR and the song is pretty cool, though it does get resolved away from the diminished chord at the end. I think that, if expanded upon, that song could make for a good movie score.


I dunno I get points off in theory if I label a mode as a scale.
#31
Sorry to strive this thread away from the extraction tool talk.

How about if you were to label it a straight minor key (non-modal), and refer to the second chord as a Neopolitan chord movement? As unlikely as it sounds, would it still be correct? I've always wondered it.

Or since the Neopolitan is a predominant chord, it would have to be followed by a dominant chord to be correctly called a Neopolitan chord?
#32
Quote by one vision
Sorry to strive this thread away from the extraction tool talk.

How about if you were to label it a straight minor key (non-modal), and refer to the second chord as a Neopolitan chord movement? As unlikely as it sounds, would it still be correct? I've always wondered it.

Or since the Neopolitan is a predominant chord, it would have to be followed by a dominant chord to be correctly called a Neopolitan chord?


Isn't a Neopolitan chord basicly the tritone substitution of the dominant, but without the 7th?

Yet a Neo chord is produced by substitution of the subdominant, and the other one by substitution of the dominant, yet they are the same?
#33
Quote by ouchies
I dunno I get points off in theory if I label a mode as a scale.

It's perfectly fine to see a mode as a scale, and a key.
#35
If a chord progression supports the mode in question, then that mode can be thought of as a key, and all the licks that go on over the top can be seen as being in the key of.....e.g "E Lydian"
#36
err most of the time songs aren't in one mode though..

I still don't think modes should be considered keys, keys are much more broad.

A song can start of in C Ionian, go to A aeolian, then to E phrygian, back to Aeolian, to G mixolydian then back to C Ionian.

The song is still in the key of C even though it can have extended sections of the various modes.
#37
Quote by one vision
Sorry to strive this thread away from the extraction tool talk.

How about if you were to label it a straight minor key (non-modal), and refer to the second chord as a Neopolitan chord movement? As unlikely as it sounds, would it still be correct? I've always wondered it.

Or since the Neopolitan is a predominant chord, it would have to be followed by a dominant chord to be correctly called a Neopolitan chord?

I can't quite remember how neopolitan chords are supposed to be used, but you would probably lose the modal feel because you'd be freer to play and resolve to a different tonal centre.

Basically though, that's a good idea, because the phrygian mode isn't the most stable mode out there.

And to gonzaw, I've screwed around in locrian before, and it's very much alike to phrygian so I tend to play like I was in the phrygian mode, but emphasize the b5 once in a while so as to keep the modal feel; I find it resolves to it's tonal centre a lot easier this way. I don't know if this is "allowed" in a true locrian progression, but it seems to work for me.
#38
Quote by st.stephen
I can't quite remember how neopolitan chords are supposed to be used, but you would probably lose the modal feel because you'd be freer to play and resolve to a different tonal centre.

Basically though, that's a good idea, because the phrygian mode isn't the most stable mode out there.

And to gonzaw, I've screwed around in locrian before, and it's very much alike to phrygian so I tend to play like I was in the phrygian mode, but emphasize the b5 once in a while so as to keep the modal feel; I find it resolves to it's tonal centre a lot easier this way. I don't know if this is "allowed" in a true locrian progression, but it seems to work for me.


Err. lorcian is so unstable its not even close to phrygian mode. it may have similar intervals but that b5 makes a huge difference.
#39
Quote by ouchies
Err. locrian is so unstable its not even close to phrygian mode. it may have similar intervals but that b5 makes a huge difference.

I realize that, that's why I avoid the b5 for the most part, making it almost like playing it in Phrygian.
Page 1 of 2