#1
Hey Pit, I was just watching a documentary about the ancient Mayans in South America and it showed all their huge buildings and intricate social order. They were seriously advanced in terms of technology for their age. And it made me wonder, why is it that these guys, who existed 5000 years ago were so advanced, when modern day indigenous peoples all over the world aren't. I mean, the natives here in Canada have been on the Earth for just as long, but the pinnacle of their culture seems to be the fact they can paint sticks and bang drums made from dead animals. It's the same story for African tribesmen who even now seem to be so far behind the ancient civilizations such as the Romans, Greeks, and Middle Eastern Tribes.


Is it something in the brain? geographical elements? i have no idea...and clever people out there?
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There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
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#3
Musn't... make... racist... comment
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#5
Quote by Zepulcre
mostly due to slavery and oppression.


Not really.

Humans, in general, are problem solvers. If you are complacent with your current situation, you have no need for technological advancement. Whereas, if you have obstacles to overcome, you may come up with some very innovative new ideas.

For example: The wheel. Someone didn't just one day say, "Goddamn, I'm going to build a round, rolling object for no reason!" They were solving a problem: "I want to haul more things and could do so if I could load a cart and roll it." Problem solved... The wheel! See what I mean? Those tribes you speak of have enough to get by and don't feel the need to progress further, so they will not until they do. Modern innovations are the same way: Computer advances are based on a desire to enhance our computing. We want faster, stronger machines with better graphics, and so we will continue to progress in that field until we reach a point that fulfills that desire.
#6
cuz these people were never looking to advance. thus, they never got with the times. they stick to there traditional way of hunting, breeding,, etc. its not that their stupid, just stubborn
#7
"civilization" is such a loaded term. Who's more civil, the "advanced" people who keep blowing each other the fuck up, or the "primitive" ones who can't figure out why?

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


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#8
Quote by Rox0r713
Not really.

Humans, in general, are problem solvers. If you are complacent with your current situation, you have no need for technological advancement. Whereas, if you have obstacles to overcome, you may come up with some very innovative new ideas.

For example: The wheel. Someone didn't just one day say, "Goddamn, I'm going to build a round, rolling object for no reason!" They were solving a problem: "I want to haul more things and could do so if I could load a cart and roll it." Problem solved... The wheel! See what I mean? Those tribes you speak of have enough to get by and don't feel the need to progress further, so they will not until they do. Modern innovations are the same way: Computer advances are based on a desire to enhance our computing. We want faster, stronger machines with better graphics, and so we will continue to progress in that field until we reach a point that fulfills that desire.



wow way to not answer the question


slavery and oppression accounts for advances in roman egyptian and british empires/civilizations. these provide the manpower and resources to achieve advances. didnt say it was only reason there are others..

for example roman empire had more advances and innovations than any civilization but then they did nothing for 1800 years..because of the resources available.
Last edited by Zepulcre at Oct 17, 2008,
#9
what i have always wondered is ...Why is it that people didnt discover things before they did. Why wasnt the electricity harnessed until Ben Franklin did so? Why couldn't someone 300 years earlier have figured that one out? The same goes for all modern advances in technology. Another topic that comes to my mind is that in some other galaxy is there a planet equal to earth that is stuck in the indigenous age that we were in thousands of years ago?
#10
Because if they didn't live up to their unicorn overlords standards they would be brutally sodomized by the Horn of Justice.


And I'm pretty sure no one wants that, right?
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#12
You should watch the Documentary: "Guns, Germs, and Steel". Basically, the theory is that geography, and the plants/animals available to a group of people determined how much and how quickly a civilization progressed. In areas like the Middle East and parts of Europe and Asia, plants such as wheat and barley could grow anywhere and the many animals there were very easy to domesticate, which made it alot simpler for a civilization to maintain a large populace and pursue knowledge of other things outside of mere survival.

That's the gist of it, the documentary is more in depth, don't feeling like typing an essay out right now
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#13
Quote by Zepulcre
wow way to not answer the question


slavery and oppression accounts for advances in roman egyptian and british empires/civilizations. these provide the manpower and resources to achieve advances. didnt say it was only reason there are others..

for example roman empire had more advances and innovations than any civilization but then they did nothing for 1800 years..because of the resources available.


I answered his question just fine. You did not. He asked, "Why are these groups so behind?" and you replied, "Slavery and oppression." Now, you are saying that "slavery and oppression" are the key to advancement. I'm confused.

Anyways, stagnation vs. motivation. I think that covers it, from any perspective. If you look at slavery as a cause to progression, one could say that the advances were due to the need to improve social, political, or architectural structures (more people under your rule = more need for trustworthy supervision and places for them to live). Conversely, if you argue that slavery caused a technological stand-still, one could argue that this was due to a lessened demand for advances to overcome foes, as they had been defeated.

Challenges instigate growth among humanity; this is a proven fact.
#14
We're really not that advanced, even now. In fact, I think humans are de-evolving
*
*
*


"Psychedelics are almost irrelevant in a town where you can wander in a casino any time in the day or night and witness the crucifixion of a gorilla."- Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
#15
Quote by Rox0r713
I answered his question just fine. You did not. He asked, "Why are these groups so behind?" and you replied, "Slavery and oppression." Now, you are saying that "slavery and oppression" are the key to advancement. I'm confused.

Anyways, stagnation vs. motivation. I think that covers it, from any perspective. If you look at slavery as a cause to progression, one could say that the advances were due to the need to improve social, political, or architectural structures (more people under your rule = more need for trustworthy supervision and places for them to live). Conversely, if you argue that slavery caused a technological stand-still, one could argue that this was due to a lessened demand for advances to overcome foes, as they had been defeated.

Challenges instigate growth among humanity; this is a proven fact.


again blah blah blah generic nonsense. just read my informed posts
#17
Quote by Rox0r713
Your arguments have lost all validity.


i can just imagine you spraffing that lot to your mum and dad who are like w/e. kids on the internet eh?
#19
christ, haven't you seen Indiana Jones? it's because the weird lookin alien things came and taught people stuff but then someone stole one of their heads and Indy had to return it so the aliens could go home.


EDIT:

Quote by CFH82
Because if they didn't live up to their unicorn overlords standards they would be brutally sodomized by the Horn of Justice.


And I'm pretty sure no one wants that, right?


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#20
Quote by Zepulcre
again blah blah blah generic nonsense. just read my informed posts


*facepalm*
Member #16 of the "Use Your Fucking Dictionary Club." PM Dæmönika to join.
#21
Quote by Rox0r713
Are you a troll?



what


your arguments are cringeworthingly generic like kids at school who try to pretend to advertise what they are on about. i bet you just collated generic rubbish from wilkipedia. soon as a topic comes up you might sound smart and unique..off to wilki
#22
Quote by Rox0r713
I answered his question just fine. You did not. He asked, "Why are these groups so behind?" and you replied, "Slavery and oppression." Now, you are saying that "slavery and oppression" are the key to advancement. I'm confused.

Anyways, stagnation vs. motivation. I think that covers it, from any perspective. If you look at slavery as a cause to progression, one could say that the advances were due to the need to improve social, political, or architectural structures (more people under your rule = more need for trustworthy supervision and places for them to live). Conversely, if you argue that slavery caused a technological stand-still, one could argue that this was due to a lessened demand for advances to overcome foes, as they had been defeated.

Challenges instigate growth among humanity; this is a proven fact.



This does make sense, but unless i'm missing something, i still don't understand why some civilizations went through the levels of advancement and some didn't. Surely the need to improve everything you listed is a universal need? not just a localized one?


PS- Ignore the other guy, hes a cretin
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
The worlds fu cked up and we lit the fuse, its all used up what you gonna do?
#23
no actually his arguments made sense

You just got all pissy about losing the arguement

I understand where your coming from with slavery being a pivotal role in expansion for those societies, but he's going more base, more instictual

your both pointing out good points, stop fighting
#24
Hey Pit, I was just watching a documentary about the ancient Mayans in South America and it was so cool! They were so smart and built lots of buildings! Why is that?! Thanks Pit!
#25
Quote by Phoenix-Kun
no actually his arguments made sense

You just got all pissy about losing the arguement

I understand where your coming from with slavery being a pivotal role in expansion for those societies, but he's going more base, more instictual

your both pointing out good points
, stop fighting



thanks. t/s is thick as hell
#26
Quote by Zepulcre
thanks. t/s is thick as hell


Why am I thick as hell?

Because i don't know everything there is to know in the world?

Your posts on this thread haven't exactly given me the impression you're any Einstein either...
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
The worlds fu cked up and we lit the fuse, its all used up what you gonna do?
#27
Quote by SteveHouse
"civilization" is such a loaded term. Who's more civil, the "advanced" people who keep blowing each other the fuck up, or the "primitive" ones who can't figure out why?


I would like everyone in this thread to carefully read this man's post and understand how f*ckin' 100% correct he is. Society with more technology ≠ better society.
#28
Quote by Supertait
This does make sense, but unless i'm missing something, i still don't understand why some civilizations went through the levels of advancement and some didn't. Surely the need to improve everything you listed is a universal need? not just a localized one?


PS- Ignore the other guy, hes a cretin


I think that falls into the cluster of societal roles and group-concepts. What are these tribes motivated by? What is their culture like? Their religion? There are groups that are opposed to advancement, such as the Amish. There are more factors in play than "universal needs." Are all of these needs necessarily universal? Geography, as you said, is a factor, I am sure. Some groups have better advances for snow, whereas they would struggle with desert life. Again, it just falls into the, "What do we need and how do we achieve it?" concept. If they don't need it, they won't have it.
#29
Quote by Supertait
Why am I thick as hell?

Because i don't know everything there is to know in the world?

Your posts on this thread haven't exactly given me the impression you're any Einstein either...



no its like a primary school way you posed the question. and you called me a name.
#30
Quote by YetAnotherMuso
I would like everyone in this thread to carefully read this man's post and understand how f*ckin' 100% correct he is. Society with more technology ≠ better society.



Do you think there were no wars before modern technology? It wasn't all peaches and cream in ancient times by any means.


Quote by Rox0r713
I think that falls into the cluster of societal roles and group-concepts. What are these tribes motivated by? What is their culture like? Their religion? There are groups that are opposed to advancement, such as the Amish. There are more factors in play than "universal needs." Are all of these needs necessarily universal? Geography, as you said, is a factor, I am sure. Some groups have better advances for snow, whereas they would struggle with desert life. Again, it just falls into the, "What do we need and how do we achieve it?" concept. If they don't need it, they won't have it.



makes sense. its good to hear an intelligent argument on here!
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
The worlds fu cked up and we lit the fuse, its all used up what you gonna do?
#31
Quote by Supertait
Do you think there were no wars before modern technology? It wasn't all peaches and cream in ancient times by any means.


Uh no...I don't think that, neither did I give any indication that I did...you missed the point, which was not the "blowing each other up" part, (at least as I interpreted it) that was analogical to the point that "civilised" is a stupid term. You can't assert that ancient Mayan society was any better than other aboriginal tribes of the time simply because they had technology like calendars and stronger buildings and crap.
#32
Quote by slayerbizkit
You should watch the Documentary: "Guns, Germs, and Steel".


Jared Diamond ftw. I thought of this book as soon as I read the OP. A lot of the advancements European civilizations got came from interacting with other civilizations, while the Mayans were pretty isolated. Another reason is overcoming obstacles, such as an invading army, creativity comes a lot faster under pressure, if there's no pressure on your society to advance and the system is working fine as it is then you'll never advance.

Another factor is geography, civilization strives around water/fertile land, optimally gulfs/peninsulas because they give lots of coast line in a compact area, leaving space for plenty of trading of land and sea, while if you look at North America/ Africa, the coast lines are very spread out and straight, so they didn't have that advantage.
Islands have the opposite effect, too much coastline not enough land, you need that perfect balance

And if you look at the world map showing population density, you see that most of the world's population is focused around one horizontal line just above the equator where it's not too hot/not too cold i.e. around the Mediterranean, Mexico, the Middle East (not so much anymore, but back in the day), India and South East Asia. The Americas don't have much land present around that area, it's actually the thinnest place on the continent, but they had just enough for the Mayans/Aztecs to prosper a little bit.

Why did I start writing that? I knew I'd never stop
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#33
Quote by YetAnotherMuso
Uh no...I don't think that, neither did I give any indication that I did...you missed the point, which was not the "blowing each other up" part, (at least as I interpreted it) that was analogical to the point that "civilised" is a stupid term. You can't assert that ancient Mayan society was any better than other aboriginal tribes of the time simply because they had technology like calendars and stronger buildings and crap.


OK i accept that.

But i was specifically talking about those kinds of technologies as we have all been bashing each other since the dawn of the human race, regardless of race, nationality or period.
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
The worlds fu cked up and we lit the fuse, its all used up what you gonna do?
#34
Quote by dingmydong
Jared Diamond ftw. I thought of this book as soon as I read the OP. A lot of the advancements European civilizations got came from interacting with other civilizations, while the Mayans were pretty isolated. Another reason is overcoming obstacles, such as an invading army, creativity comes a lot faster under pressure, if there's no pressure on your society to advance and the system is working fine as it is then you'll never advance.

Another factor is geography, civilization strives around water/fertile land, optimally gulfs/peninsulas because they give lots of coast line in a compact area, leaving space for plenty of trading of land and sea, while if you look at North America/ Africa, the coast lines are very spread out and straight, so they didn't have that advantage.
Islands have the opposite effect, too much coastline not enough land, you need that perfect balance

And if you look at the world map showing population density, you see that most of the world's population is focused around one horizontal line just above the equator where it's not too hot/not too cold i.e. around the Mediterranean, Mexico, the Middle East (not so much anymore, but back in the day), India and South East Asia. The Americas don't have much land present around that area, it's actually the thinnest place on the continent, but they had just enough for the Mayans/Aztecs to prosper a little bit.

Why did I start writing that? I knew I'd never stop



Good job, that really makes sense. Thankyou!
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
The worlds fu cked up and we lit the fuse, its all used up what you gonna do?
#35
Quote by Supertait
OK i accept that.

But i was specifically talking about those kinds of technologies as we have all been bashing each other since the dawn of the human race, regardless of race, nationality or period.


...wow, respect to you man lol...you considered what was said and clarified what you meant without being offensive...two things that don't normally happen in the pit! I see where you're coming from, which is that it's just interesting that some societies did develop technology and others didn't (right?)...I understood your original point, just misunderstood the tone of it was all. Peace!
#36
Quote by YetAnotherMuso
...wow, respect to you man lol...you considered what was said and clarified what you meant without being offensive...two things that don't normally happen in the pit! I see where you're coming from, which is that it's just interesting that some societies did develop technology and others didn't (right?)...I understood your original point, just misunderstood the tone of it was all. Peace!


Yeah that was the point of the OP. But i thinks i got it now!

Theres no reason we cant all be CIVIL to each other is there
Quote by n to the k
^ you are wise


Quote by Maus24
There's been sooo many threads done on this; I don't even wanna hear that you used the searchbar. Staring at it and giggling does not count.
The worlds fu cked up and we lit the fuse, its all used up what you gonna do?
#37
Quote by Zepulcre
no its like a primary school way you posed the question. and you called me a name.


Quote by Zepulcre
your arguments are cringeworthingly generic like kids at school who try to pretend to advertise what they are on about. i bet you just collated generic rubbish from wilkipedia. soon as a topic comes up you might sound smart and unique..off to wilki

Thanks dude. I hadn't had my daily dose of irony yet.

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


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