#1
Can somebody please explain to me what is going on in the Preverse of the song Morning Calls, by Dashboard Confessional...

Theres a powertab on this website...

If you cant look at it this is the chord progression.
Its in E major.

The Verse goes --> :/ E / Asus2 / E / Badd11 / E / Asus2 / B / B /:
Pre Chorus --> A / A / B / B
Chorus --> :/ C#m7 Badd11 / Asus2 /: x4

Pre Verse --> G#m / Cmadd6

Over the G#m chord the 2nd guitar plays the notes, g#, c and d#...
So why a c note, if its in Emajor???
Where does that come from?

And then whats with the random Cmadd6 chord....
My feeling on this is that it uses the tritone substitution chord... Which for E would be F7, but then it takes out the F, and uses the chord inverted, so the root is C. That would make sense I suppose...but it seems over complicated.

Im just left very confused, so if anyone can explain this and tell me whats actually going on I would be very grateful.

Thanks

Also, later on in the song the chord progression in the breakdown goes -->
A / Am / E / E

Again using the C note, which isnt in the E major scale....
So whats happening here aswell?
Last edited by Lum at Oct 19, 2008,
#3
Quote by gonzaw
C is the minor sixth of E, so it must come from the harmonic major scale...


I'd be far more tempted to just call it a passing tone. Not everything has grand theoretical significance.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#4
Quote by Archeo Avis
I'd be far more tempted to just call it a passing tone. Not everything has grand theoretical significance.


Well, could be, but as it looks like it bases part of the harmony of the song in it (Cmadd6 chords,etc)...

G#m has G# B and D#, wouldn't playing a C be a little bit dissonant? (quite a bit).
And that Cmadd6 has a Eb too (unless it is being omitted or something), maybe it changes keys or something...
#5
Quote by gonzaw
Well, could be, but as it looks like it bases part of the harmony of the song in it (Cmadd6 chords,etc)...

G#m has G# B and D#, wouldn't playing a C be a little bit dissonant? (quite a bit).
And that Cmadd6 has a Eb too (unless it is being omitted or something), maybe it changes keys or something...
Maybe the Eb acts as the D# in E major


I'm calling the C over the B a passing tone as well.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#6
Quote by sean
You sure?
In E major, the dominant is B7, the tritone sub for B7 is F7
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#7
Quote by Ændy
In E major, the dominant is B7, the tritone sub for B7 is F7

Thanks, I don't know what the hell I was thinking. For some reason I thought there was a naming error and I was pointing it out in my smartass way. Turns out I'm trying to make excuses to be a smartass when there's no reason to be It's a sickness

*removes previous post*
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#8
Quote by metal4all
Maybe the Eb acts as the D# in E major


I'm calling the C over the B a passing tone as well.


Maybe then it would be called Csus#2add6 instead of Cmadd6

Yeah I thought it would be a passing tone....

Quote by Ænimus Prime
In E major, the dominant is B7, the tritone sub for B7 is F7


How does tritone substitution work?

Cause in the end you get a ii-I (or bii-I) cadence, but, why should it be the V of the V, and why isn't it the vi of IV or something like that?
Last edited by gonzaw at Oct 19, 2008,
#9
Quote by gonzaw
Maybe then it would be called Csus#2add6 instead of Cmadd6

Yeah I thought it would be a passing tone....


How does tritone substitution work?

Cause in the end you get a ii-I (or bii-I) cadence, but, why should it be the V of the V, and why isn't it the vi of IV or something like that?
What it is and how it acts are 2 completely different things, no?

It's like playing lydian over a diminished chord. Tell me the #4 isn't a b5.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#10
How does tritone substitution work?

Cause in the end you get a ii-I (or bii-I) cadence, but, why should it be the V of the V, and why isn't it the vi of IV or something like that?
I think you're confusing secondary dominants with tritone subs

Tritone substitution is based on the fact that a tritone is exactly half of an octave. The D# and A that make the tritone in B7 also make the tritone in F7 (F A C D#). Because the tritone is what makes a dom7 chord work the way it does, the other dom7 chord with the same tritone is pretty much interchangeable. So if you're in Bb major, doing a V - I, you could replace F7 with B7 and still resolve strongly to Bb.

Moving from B7 (B D# F# A) to Bb (Bb D F):
The B moves down by a semitone to Bb
D# moves down by a semitone to D
F# moves down by a semitone to F
A moves up by a semitone to Bb (A is the leading tone in Bb major)

Notice that the voices that make tritone (D# and A) move outward by semitones to create a minor sixth interval (D to Bb), which can also be thought of as a major third (Bb to D). The point is that with tritone substitution the tritone resolves outward instead of inward.

Tritone substitution can be used to create a chromatic bassline in a simple ii - V - I progression. In Bb major that is Cm F7 Bb. When we substitute B7 for F7 we get Cm B7 Bb, which has beautiful chromatic movement in the bass.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#11
Quote by Ænimus Prime
I think you're confusing secondary dominants with tritone subs

Tritone substitution is based on the fact that a tritone is exactly half of an octave. The D# and A that make the tritone in B7 also make the tritone in F7 (F A C D#). Because the tritone is what makes a dom7 chord work the way it does, the other dom7 chord with the same tritone is pretty much interchangeable. So if you're in Bb major, doing a V - I, you could replace F7 with B7 and still resolve strongly to Bb.

Moving from B7 (B D# F# A) to Bb (Bb D F):
The B moves down by a semitone to Bb
D# moves down by a semitone to D
F# moves down by a semitone to F
A moves up by a semitone to Bb (A is the leading tone in Bb major)

Notice that the voices that make tritone (D# and A) move outward by semitones to create a minor sixth interval (D to Bb), which can also be thought of as a major third (Bb to D). The point is that with tritone substitution the tritone resolves outward instead of inward.

Tritone substitution can be used to create a chromatic bassline in a simple ii - V - I progression. In Bb major that is Cm F7 Bb. When we substitute B7 for F7 we get Cm B7 Bb, which has beautiful chromatic movement in the bass.



Oh now I get it, yes I was confusing with SS and thought it had to do with that..

So it basicly it says that you substitute a dominant with a tritone with another dominant with the same tritone (well, one is a #4 and the other a b5 apparently), so that you can still resolve to the tonic but have the voices move differently?

But I dont' get a thing in Cmajor for instance...

A tritone from G to C#-
C#7-C#-E#-G#-B
How is it that I get E# instead of F?
In your example you did the same thing, going up a tritone (from F7 to B7), but the notes encountered where the same...
If you did it going down a tritone like G-Db, you get Db F Ab Cb with Cb instead of B...

Which of those two chords is the right one?
Or maybe you need a C#susb4m7 or something?

EDIT:Nevermind, I saw you used D# as m7 of F instead of Eb...
But strictly speaking, you can never do tritone substitution right? (cause you get enharmonical notes, which in other tunings would make tritone substitution kind of useless)...
Last edited by gonzaw at Oct 19, 2008,
#12

Its in E major.

The Verse goes --> :/ E / Asus2 / E / Badd11 / E / Asus2 / B / B /:
Pre Chorus --> A / A / B / B 
Chorus --> :/ C#m7 Badd11 / Asus2 /: x4

Pre Verse --> G#m / Cmadd6

Over the G#m chord the 2nd guitar plays the notes, g#, c and d#...
So why a c note, if its in Emajor???
Where does that come from?


As all of the others have said Im assuming just a passing tone.


And then whats with the random Cmadd6 chord....
My feeling on this is that it uses the tritone substitution chord... 
Which for E would be F7, but then it takes out the F, and uses the chord inverted, so the root is C. 
That would make sense I suppose...but it seems over complicated.

Im just left very confused, so if anyone can explain this and tell me whats actually going on I would be very grateful.

Thanks



Cmadd6, could of course also be interpreted as F9 rootless, which as youve pointed out is a tts/V.

It could be that, or they could be just doing it, because it sounds good.



Also, later on in the song the chord progression in the breakdown goes -->
A / Am / E / E

Again using the C note, which isnt in the E major scale....
So whats happening here aswell?



As far as this part goes, the A minor could be borrrowed from the parralel Minor scale (E Minor) making that the IV chord to I back in the parralel major.

EDIT: Sorry for the overly massive post, dont know how to make it smaller.
#13
Cmadd6, could of course also be interpreted as F9 rootless


That seems...strange. The whole point of a tritone substitution is that the root of the sub creates a chromatic movement to the tonic.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#14
I know, its one of the main highlights of it, if not as explanied as that, what would you explain it was Archeo?
#15
So I was right about it being a tritone substitution...

But the bass doesnt move chromatically, it goes G# - C - E
Which does seem a little wierd, the whole preverse does seem to sound strange but it resolves beautifully back to the Emajor chord. So it isnt modulating.

Personally I wouldn't say the C note over the G#m chord is a passing tone as the note pattern is reapeated 4 times over the chord...I'd call it a G#madd11 - but then that doesn't explain why it works.

Im liking the whole theory of borrowing the Aminor chord, that seems to make sense, plus I can't think of a better reason for it to be there...It's just that the C note is on a constant theme through the song... and it isnt in the scale.
And Im the type of person who wont except...'they did it because it sounds good' as an answer, I like to think that there is theory behind everything, I know it sounds good...but I can't rest until I know why it sounds good.

* ? WHY DAMMIT WHY ? *
#16
Well, the bass is playing a G#+/C+/E+ whatever their all symmetrical.

As to resolving back to the E Major, you only have 1 voice descending a semi-tone, so it's no wonder it would sound good.

As far as a C, as Gonzaw said, if you want a E major scale with a C natural, thats your Harmonic Major.

Another theory for the C note, if its in the time of the peice every modulating to the relative minor (C# Min) in this case, the C could be making it a harmonic minor, acting as the raised 7th, which brings up the question, is it a C, or a B#.
#17
Damn, I didnt spot that, yeah, seeing as the chorus starts with C#minor I guess it would be taken from the harmonic minor.

I didnt even know there was a harmonic major...........

And it wouldnt be a G#madd11 - my bad - its actually got both the major 3rd and minor 3rd in the chord.


Quote by Galvanise69
Well, the bass is playing a G#+/C+/E+ whatever their all symmetrical.

As to resolving back to the E Major, you only have 1 voice descending a semi-tone, so it's no wonder it would sound good.


What do you mean by all of this?