Page 1 of 3
#2
Quote by ChangingAString
This is a potentially useful article on the circle of fifths, how and why you might go about memorising and using it properly:

http://www.theguitarmaster.co.uk/article.php/howto-memorise-fifihs
How convenient that The Guitar Master has done away with flats. Just think how much easier music will be now that we no longer have to deal with those pesky flats. Were it not for the fact that this brief, 665-word article is glaringly wrong on several points, it would be a great introduction to the Circle of Fifths. Party pooper that I am, I feel the need to correct a few of these blatant errors:

  • "...there is no E#, it is F" - wrong
  • "...there is no B#, it is C." - wrong
  • There is no fifth relationship between A# and F. This interval is actually a diminished sixth, and if you try to pass this off as a perfect fifth in the real world you're going to find yourself in a world of confusion.

Thanks to ChangingAString for bringing this article to our attention, but its real value lies in its description of how not to learn the Circle of Fifths.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
Last edited by gpb0216 at Oct 20, 2008,
#3
Wow, sounds like somebody was having a bad day when they wrote that reply!

in saying that "...there is no E#. it is F.." surely the idea is just to try and make it easier to commit to memory? Anyone who knows the basic major scale intervals knows that E# and F, B# and C are, from a physics point of view, the same note?

And surely anyone with a basic music foundation also knows that an A# is the same note as a Bb? And perhaps the author of the previous message could improve the guitar master's utility by explaining why the interval between an A# and an F is not a fifth? Any diagram of the circle of fifths that you can find would disagree with you. Unless I'm missing the point?

If I'm missing the point, then I'd be glad to be told why! It is more than possible, as I'm personally a fairly new venturer into the world of musical theory. If I would be wasting my time in reading the content on the quoted website, I would certainly like to be told why! And I'm sure the author of the article would like to know, as they stated in the article...

"Note: A big thank you goes out to visitor "A Burnett" for spotting a mistake on the circle of fifths page. The error has been corrected. If you spot anything else wrong, please feel free to leave a message via the contact page."

Some people are just so negative!

lol
#4
lol, 665 word article!

What I did was just memorize my major triads. Seems more simple and helpful to me.
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's like you read my mind!

I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
#5
Quote by ChangingAString
Wow, sounds like somebody was having a bad day when they wrote that reply!
Actually I'm having quite a good day, thank you.
in saying that "...there is no E#. it is F.." surely the idea is just to try and make it easier to commit to memory? Anyone who knows the basic major scale intervals knows that E# and F, B# and C are, from a physics point of view, the same note?
If this were an article on the physics of musical sound, then I could certainly agree, in principle, that "there is no E#, it is F". Unfortunately for the article's author (and anyone trying to learn musical theory), the Circle of Fifths is a tool for learning the theory of musical relationships. That being the case, this article is useless.
And surely anyone with a basic music foundation also knows that an A# is the same note as a Bb?
I, and many others in this forum, have far greater than a "basic music foundation". I can tell you without any hesitation whatsoever that, as relates to music theory, an A# is not the same as a Bb.
And perhaps the author of the previous message could improve the guitar master's utility by explaining why the interval between an A# and an F is not a fifth?
The interval between an A# and F is not a fifth because it is a sixth. Specifically it is a diminished sixth. If you don't understand why this is so, I urge you to hook up with a teacher who understands intervals and have him or her explain it to you.
Any diagram of the circle of fifths that you can find would disagree with you.
All, that is, except the accurate ones.
If I'm missing the point, then I'd be glad to be told why! It is more than possible, as I'm personally a fairly new venturer into the world of musical theory. If I would be wasting my time in reading the content on the quoted website, I would certainly like to be told why!
Well then, here's why: You'd be wasting your time to read, let alone memorize, this article because it is horribly inaccurate. Why take the trouble to learn something that's wrong, just to have to unlearn it in order to learn the truth?

For just one of many, many examples of an accurate Circle of Fifths on the Internet, please click here.
And I'm sure the author of the article would like to know, as they stated in the article...
And I'm equally sure it would be a waste of my time to try to enlighten someone who took the time and effort to put such a useless page up. It has been my experience that anyone convinced that an A# is the same as a Bb as it relates to music theory is not open to being confused by the facts.
Some people are just so negative!
That's true, but I'm not one of those people. And even if I were, I'd rather be negative than ignorant.

By your own admission you're pretty new to this music theory stuff. My advice is to find a competent teacher and pay them to teach you how the Circle of Fifths actually works. The Circle of Fifths is foundational knowledge. It will will be well worth your time and money to learn it right.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
Last edited by gpb0216 at Oct 20, 2008,
#6
Well, he does call himself the Guitar Master, not the Theory Master.....

Though I could see his method being easier for the players who would rather memorize than understand, and let's face it, they outnumber us. But that being said, I agree it's a pretty bad article.
#7
Thanks for the reply gpb0216,

I'm having a great day as well!

I think you've helped me a great deal! It looks to me as though the problem with the guitar master's circle of fifths, and with their (short) article is that it misses the point of when to add sharps and when to add flats. Going clockwise around the circle and adding a sharp each time means that by the time you get to C#, you've added 7 sharps (or five plus your B and your C :-) I'm guessing that you're stance on this is easier to understand!). So what do you do as you continue around the circle? Well you need to sharpen something that has already been sharpened. And when you double sharpen something, you might as well leave it natural and start adding your flats, going around the circle anti-clockwise (circle of fourths).

This means that the interactive circle of fifths on the aforementioned site is still accurate, but the explanation needs improving and the importance of recognising that sometimes it's important to call an F an E# needs to be made clear. What I'm going to do right now is point this out to the guitar master, so that this inaccuracy is no longer avaialable to confuse other musicians.

I really can't thank you enough for clearing this up for me! This goes to prove that you don't need to pay for a teacher. This stuff is all logical and intuitive, just sometimes you understand it incorrectly, and that's where the internet steps in. I'm sure I've still missed the point somewhere. And if so, I'll find out in time, maybe on this very thread!

I've only been studying music theory in my spare time as a supplement to my guitar playing for about 3 or 4 months and I think I'm doing pretty well just the way I am.

Thanks again!

p.s. The interval between a 5th and a 6th is one semitone, so a diminished 6th = a 5th, especially in the key of A# where an F is the fifth note in the scale. perhaps there are just two ways of looking at the same thing. But I'll stick to my way if it makes sense for now. Perhaps in my travels I will stumble upon a better argument to convince me that I'm wrong.
#8
Quote by ChangingAString
Wow, sounds like somebody was having a bad day when they wrote that reply!

in saying that "...there is no E#. it is F.." surely the idea is just to try and make it easier to commit to memory? Anyone who knows the basic major scale intervals knows that E# and F, B# and C are, from a physics point of view, the same note?

And surely anyone with a basic music foundation also knows that an A# is the same note as a Bb? And perhaps the author of the previous message could improve the guitar master's utility by explaining why the interval between an A# and an F is not a fifth? Any diagram of the circle of fifths that you can find would disagree with you. Unless I'm missing the point?

If I'm missing the point, then I'd be glad to be told why! It is more than possible, as I'm personally a fairly new venturer into the world of musical theory. If I would be wasting my time in reading the content on the quoted website, I would certainly like to be told why! And I'm sure the author of the article would like to know, as they stated in the article...

"Note: A big thank you goes out to visitor "A Burnett" for spotting a mistake on the circle of fifths page. The error has been corrected. If you spot anything else wrong, please feel free to leave a message via the contact page."

Some people are just so negative!

lol


Nor from a physics or theoretical point of view are B# and C the same note.
#9
I'm guessing that you're talking about the fact that as you continue to divide a string, the actual frequency you get is not always exactly on the note...

Anyway, I'll google it!

I emailed the guitar master and referred them back to this thread. I got a reply back almost immediately! And they've added a message at the top of the page.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
#10
Quote by ChangingAString
p.s. The interval between a 5th and a 6th is one semitone, so a diminished 6th = a 5th, especially in the key of A# where an F is the fifth note in the scale. perhaps there are just two ways of looking at the same thing. But I'll stick to my way if it makes sense for now. Perhaps in my travels I will stumble upon a better argument to convince me that I'm wrong.


The interval between a 5th and a 6th means nothing. The interval between a perfect 5th and a minor 6th is a semitone. Also, the key of A# doesn't exist. Bb does.
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#11
Surely the difference between the 5th and 6th in a major scale is always a semitone? Referring to them as a major fifth and a minor sixth is just a way of reinforcing in your own mind which mode you are in. If you were not in the major scale then the difference between a fifth and a sixth may be a whole tone. The different modes are all just based on the major scale, but using a different root. Again, there is more than one way of looking at this. It's what you do with it that counts.

The main purpose of the article appears to be to assist the reader in actually memorising the order of notes around the circle and introduce some of the applications. And for me, I thought it made a lot of sense, despite only scraping the surface. I thought some of the previous comments in this thread were a little bit harsh, that's all. After all, we're all just trying to improve our own and others' understanding of music, are we not?
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
#12
Quote by gonzaw
Nor from a physics or theoretical point of view are B# and C the same note.


This is correct as any trained singer, horn or non-fretted string player knows.
Physically B# = C only on equal tempered instruments, theoretically it never does.

gpb0216's analysis of the article is right on.

MoonBoots432 is mistaken, A# (major) as a key does exist, as can key of D# etc.
#13
Quote by ChangingAString
Surely the difference between the 5th and 6th in a major scale is always a semitone?


??????

Edit: This assumption might highlight the danger of relying upon dodgy/incomplete/wrong shortcuts from the internet for a music education.
Last edited by R.Christie at Oct 20, 2008,
#14
Quote by ChangingAString
Surely the difference between the 5th and 6th in a major scale is always a semitone?
No it's always a whole tone
1w2w3h4w5w6w7h8.

When your root note is A# an F is always a sixth. Why?
Because
an A to a B is a second
an A to a C is a third
an A to a D is a fourth
an A to an E is a fifth
an A to a F is a sixth
an A to a G is a seventh.
^This is ALWAYS true. It will be easier for you if you just accept it. I did have some examples of why this is right. But basically what it boils down to is calling A# to F a P5 will sound fine when you're playing it since you're not labelling the note. As soon as you label it an F it becomes misleading. You would be implying that there is some kind of diminished fifth and that there is no other 6th present and so only one more note (the 7th which is some kind of G) between the F and the next A#.

If the chord were A#6 it would be A# C# E# Fx. Not A# C# F Fx. (try writing each on a staff. It's easier to use one letter for each scale degree. And better to learn it correctly right from the start. It's not a difficult concept.)

EDIT: The "Interactive Circle of Fifths" from the Website is pretty cool.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Oct 20, 2008,
#15
Quote by 20Tigers
No it's always a whole tone
1w2w3h4w5w6w7h8.

When your root note is A# an F is always a sixth. Why?
Because
an A to a B is a second
an A to a C is a third
an A to a D is a fourth
an A to an E is a fifth
an A to a F is a sixth
an A to a G is a seventh.
^This is ALWAYS true. It will be easier for you if you just accept it.
<snip>


Above is true. But you can go further than accepting it as interval values are very simple. By definition they arise from counting up the different letter names ignoring all sharps flats etc.
So A-C = A B C = 3 etc etc etc
This is essentially the same as counting the number of changes in line, space, line etc between where the two notes are found on the stave or staff. Take your pick of method.

After establishing the numerical value then the QUALITY (maj, min, dim etc) can be established.
#18
Quote by R.Christie
MoonBoots432 is mistaken, A# (major) as a key does exist, as can key of D# etc.


When did you ever see a double sharp or flat in a key signature, huh? Tell me what the key signatures are then.
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#19
Quote by MoonBoots432
When did you ever see a double sharp or flat in a key signature, huh? Tell me what the key signatures are then.

D# E# Fx G# A# B# Cx

E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx

Fb Gb Ab Bbb Cb Db Eb

G# A# B# C# D# E# Fx

A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx

B# Cx Dx E# Fx Gx Ax

The only reason why they haven't shown up on key signatures, I believe, is because of those pesky doublesharps/flats and it was easier to notate using their alternate notes.

That doesn't mean that they don't exist, though.
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's like you read my mind!

I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
#20
Quote by MoonBoots432
When did you ever see a double sharp or flat in a key signature, huh? Tell me what the key signatures are then.


You may be right, I wondered after my posting that reply, but I have strong recollection of when transcribing Cadiz by I Albeniz from piano to guitar (and transposing into into Am) the transcription demanded a modulation into D# at one stage. I had to use Eb instead if I recollect accurately. Unfortunately, I remember that using Eb obscured the relationship between the keys that Albeniz had established. It was a case where D# was the theoretically "correct" key to use, I also remember being surprised. Now, I'm relating this all from memory - I've relocated house and my music and files are currently in storage so unfortunately I can't easily check this up. I'm prepared to stand corrected on the issue, but I'll break open some of the storage cartons later today and find this example to confirm this (special?) case.
#22
Quote by gonzaw
what if you have a doubleflat/sharp scale? Like FX major?
You don't have that scale at all.

Perhaps the key of Fx major "theoretically" exists, but I could theoretically put a pen on its tip on my (very hard) desk before I go to class tomorrow, spend the entire day outside of my dorm, and return at 8pm to find that the pen has not moved at all.
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You don't have that scale at all.

Perhaps the key of Fx major "theoretically" exists, but I could theoretically put a pen on its tip on my (very hard) desk before I go to class tomorrow, spend the entire day outside of my dorm, and return at 8pm to find that the pen has not moved at all.


According to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic

it looks as though you're wrong Sue, (I was right as was silverdark).
And my previous post gave a good example of when such keys are required to maintain key relationships. It is just that they are seldom demanded.
#24
Quote by R.Christie
According to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic

it looks as though you're wrong Sue, (I was right as was silverdark).
And my previous post gave a good example of when such keys are required to maintain key relationships. It is just that they are seldom demanded.
Do you honestly think that I have no fucking idea what enharmonic tones are?

Anyway, the idea of writing something in the key of Fx would probably result in whoever is performing the piece hitting you with a music stand, to quasi-quote Arch.
#25
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Do you honestly think that I have no fucking idea what enharmonic tones are?

Anyway, the idea of writing something in the key of Fx would probably result in whoever is performing the piece hitting you with a music stand, to quasi-quote Arch.


To aid your argument BGC (though you don't need it, this is more for clarification) -

In the circle of 5ths, if you were to COMPLETELY extend the circle, you DO indeed get key signatures like D#, etc.

Anyways, if you had the Fx major scale, that TECHNICALLY would be enharmonic to the G major scale, because when you sharp a note, you raise it by a semitone. Therefore, F --> F# --> Fx = G.

If you understand the THEORY behind the major scale (w,w,h,w,w,w,h), then you can apply it to ANY scale, whether or not it ACTUALLY exists. If I were you, I wouldn't argue with BGC, she knows what she's talking about.


Using this logic, whoever said (it was like the 4th post or something) that A# and Bb aren't the same note - you're an idiot. The only way those two notes cannot be the same pitch is if they are in a different octave register, but even then they would be a perfect 8ve from each other. A# and Bb are the same pitch - here's why: if you took A and raised it by a semitone (half-step), you wind up with the note A#. If you took B and lowered it a semitone, you wind up with Bb. At first they don't look related, but go one semitone further, and you see that Bbb is enharmonic with A, and Ax is enharmonic with B. If you don't believe me, go sit at a piano. A# and Bb are the same pitch.

And to the second post (same person if I'm not mistaken), "there is no E#, it is F", etc; that actually proves true. As far as key signatures and major scales go in TODAY's world, you wouldn't use an E# scale, you'd call the key of E# the key of F for simplicity's sake. I do agree with you that the article is wrong in a sense, but your thinking is VERY VERY one-dimensional.
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Last edited by Idiosyncracy at Oct 21, 2008,
#26
Quote by Idiosyncracy


Using this logic, whoever said (it was like the 4th post or something) that A# and Bb aren't the same note - you're an idiot. The only way those two notes cannot be the same pitch is if they are in a different octave register, but even then they would be a perfect 8ve from each other. A# and Bb are the same pitch - here's why: if you took A and raised it by a semitone (half-step), you wind up with the note A#. If you took B and lowered it a semitone, you wind up with Bb. At first they don't look related, but go one semitone further, and you see that Bb is enharmonic with A, and Ax is enharmonic with B. If you don't believe me, go sit at a piano. A# and Bb are the same pitch.

And to the second post (same person if I'm not mistaken), "there is no E#, it is F", etc; that actually proves true. As far as key signatures and major scales go in TODAY's world, you wouldn't use an E# scale, you'd call the key of E# the key of F for simplicity's sake. I do agree with you that the article is wrong in a sense, but your thinking is VERY VERY one-dimensional.


To state that someone is an idiot is to invite devastating replies from some who may actually be better trained than yourself. Your reply implies that you have little idea about tuning systems or scale construction.
In essence, your comments apply only to equal temperament. In equal temperament even perfect intervals (except octaves) are inherently out of tune. Intervals in other tuning systems differ and are in many cases the width of intervals is subjective. For example string players regularly sharpen, compared to equal tempered scales, leading tones of scales, meaning a player using D# as the leading tone of E major is will not use the same pitch in a following piece for an Eb in key of C minor.

This was why Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" was such a musical revelation. It is only on an equal tempered instrument that it could be rendered.

Many modern performers, as a matter of deliberate choice and depending on context, don't use equal temperament preferring the purer sound of pure intonation for fifths etc. Many make the change (often strings and voice) instinctively.
Last edited by R.Christie at Oct 21, 2008,
#27
Quote by R.Christie
To state that someone is an idiot is to invite devastating replies from some who may actually be better trained than yourself. Your reply implies that you have little idea about tuning systems or scale construction.
In essence, your comments apply only to equal temperament. In equal temperament even perfect intervals (except octaves) are inherently out of tune. Intervals in other tuning systems differ and are in many cases the width of intervals is subjective. For example string players regularly sharpen, compared to equal tempered scales, leading tones of scales, meaning a player using D# as the leading tone of E major is will not use the same pitch in a following piece for an Eb in key of C minor.

This was why Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" was such a musical revelation. It is only on an equal tempered instrument that it could be rendered.

Many modern performers, as a matter of deliberate choice and depending on context, don't use equal temperament preferring the purer sound of pure intonation for fifths etc. Many make the change (often strings and voice) instinctively.


First off, don't argue with me unless you're a music major in your 3rd or 4th year of music theory. I took the AP Music Theory class last year and had a 100 in the class since day 1, as well as getting a 5 on the AP exam.

Now, if you want to undermine the on-paper theory with the physics of the notes, that's a completely different issue than the theory of notes on a page, because the actually notated music dictates what pitch SHOULD be played, not what pitch is ACTUALLY played based on the geometry of whatever instrument you're playing (got a 5 on the Physics B exam as well, and taking both Physics C exams)

And by the way, you are correct that D# is the leading tone of E major, but since you switched to C minor, you have to switch the leading tone. Leading tone applies to the relative location of the root of the scale or "do" (I use solfege in choir as well, or the "home" of the key"). The leading tone of C minor is a A#, because there is a whole step from the 7th of a minor scale to the root (and don't forget that A# is enharmonic to Bb). What you're trying to argue makes no sense at all, because you're only relating it to STRING players. Don't relate music theory arguments to specific instruments - music theory relates to how the music works, not the physics of a string instrument and the pitch generated at a certain position.
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Last edited by Idiosyncracy at Oct 21, 2008,
#28
Quote by Idiosyncracy
First off, don't argue with me unless you're a music major in your 3rd or 4th year of music theory. I took the AP Music Theory class last year and had a 100 in the class since day 1, as well as getting a 5 on the AP exam.

Now, if you want to undermine the on-paper theory with the physics of the notes, that's a completely different issue than the theory of notes on a page, because the actually notated music dictates what pitch SHOULD be played, not what pitch is ACTUALLY played based on the geometry of whatever instrument you're playing (got a 5 on the Physics B exam as well, and taking both Physics C exams)

And by the way, you are correct that D# is the leading tone of E major, but since you switched to C minor, you have to switch the leading tone. Leading tone applies to the relative location of the root of the scale or "do" (I use solfege in choir as well, or the "home" of the key"). The leading tone of C minor is a A#, because there is a whole step from the 7th of a minor scale to the root (and don't forget that A# is enharmonic to Bb). What you're trying to argue makes no sense at all, because you're only relating it to STRING players. Don't relate music theory arguments to specific instruments - music theory relates to how the music works, not the physics of a string instrument and the pitch generated at a certain position.


From your logic, you ought not argue with me. I am a music major and have 20 years music teaching and professional performance behind me, it's how I earn my living. Nevertheless, such appeals to authority are petty.

You ought to get outside your equal-tempered straightjacket. What I'm revealing to you (not arguing) doesn't just relate to string players, and music notation didn't suddenly change when equal temperament became the tuning system of choice for keyboards.

Before equal temperament they had to re-tune for different keys. I've even heard harpsicord players who have two instruments on stage to accomodate key changes.

I repeat your contentions are ONLY valid in equal tempered systems.

Edit: nor is A# the leading note of C minor. If you maintain that then please spare your school the embarassment of identifying it.
Last edited by R.Christie at Oct 21, 2008,
#29
Quote by R.Christie
Edit: nor is A# the leading note of C minor. If you maintain that then please spare your school the embarassment of identifying it.


Word.
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#30
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Do you honestly think that I have no fucking idea what enharmonic tones are?

Anyway, the idea of writing something in the key of Fx would probably result in whoever is performing the piece hitting you with a music stand, to quasi-quote Arch.


No, Sue, I wouldn't dare assume such a thing But I suspect you didn't read it before replying, it is what it says about the existence of keys such as G# that is interesting.

If it's of any intertest, I've felt like throwing a music stand at any number of composers over the years, especially the serialist wannabes.

Edit: Actually, I wasn't paying close attention and misread your Fx as F#. But still, at least according to Wiki theorists, ["All key signatures also have an infinite number of enharmonic key signatures that sound identical."] it seems that it "exists" . Yes, you are right, I'd complain if I had to read in it.
Last edited by R.Christie at Oct 21, 2008,
#31
This is some good discussion. Woo hoo! I feel like I'm learning stuff. Awesome.

You guys rock!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
#32
Quote by gonzaw
I heard that enharmonical scales or keys sum 12 alterations each...
But what if you have a doubleflat/sharp scale? Like FX major? Does that "rule" still apply?
hmmm I don't know...
Fx Gx Ax B# Cx Dx Ex = 13 alterations. You wouldn't use Fx as enharmonic since G already uses a sharp. You want to use the enharmonic key that employs flats so...

Abb Bbb Cb Dbb Ebb Fb Gb = 11 so that could work.

but of course we need to include

G A B C D E F# = 1 so maybe it's actually 25.

Probably a completely useless piece of information that will never benefit anyone.

So lets do the next one

D E F# G A B C# D = 2
Ebb Fb Gb Abb Bbb Cb Db = 10

I think I'm starting to see a pattern. With double sharps take the number of alterations and subtract the number of alterations in the enharmonic natural to get 12. With the double flats take the number of alterations and add the number of alterations from the enharmonic natural key to get 12. The double sharp plus it's enharmonic double flat will total 24 alterations. So C## should equal 14 alterations...

Cx Dx Ex Fx Gx Ax Bx = 14 alterations

Anyone follow that useless rambling?

I imagine with flat keys it would be the mirror image

F G A Bb C D E = 1
Gbb Abb Bbb Cbb Dbb Ebb Fb = 13
E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx = 11

So when one is flat and the other is sharp the total will be 12.
When they are both sharp or both flat the difference will be 12.
Provided they are enharmonic and one uses double sharps/flats and the other is natural.
When one is flat and the other sharp and they are both double sharp/flats respectively the sum is 24.

This is all because the double flat key will have 12 more alterations than it's enharmonic natural flat key.

And a double sharp key will have 12 more alterations than it's enharmonic natural sharp key.

Sorry to ruin the learning ChangingAstring this post is a pointless result of Gonzaw getting me wondering too not much to learn here.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Oct 21, 2008,
#33
Quote by 20Tigers


<snip> I think I'm starting to see a pattern. With double sharps take the number of alterations and subtract the number of alterations in the enharmonic natural to get 12. With the double flats take the number of alterations and add the number of alterations from the enharmonic natural key to get 12. The double sharp plus it's enharmonic double flat will total 24 alterations. So C## should equal 14 alterations...

Cx Dx Ex Fx Gx Ax Bx = 14 alterations

Anyone follow that useless rambling?

I imagine with flat keys it would be the mirror image

F G A Bb C D E = 1
Gbb Abb Bbb Cbb Dbb Ebb Fb = 13
E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx = 11

So when one is flat and the other is sharp the total will be 12.
When they are both sharp or both flat the difference will be 12. <snip>


Ha, ha, or multiples of 12 ?
Well spotted, but man, that's got to be one weird talent you've got
Do you find patterns in the ceiling too?
#34
Edit: Yuck.
Last edited by ChrisN at Oct 21, 2008,
#35
Quote by 20Tigers
No it's always a whole tone
1w2w3h4w5w6w7h8.

When your root note is A# an F is always a sixth. Why?
Because
an A to a B is a second
an A to a C is a third
an A to a D is a fourth
an A to an E is a fifth
an A to a F is a sixth
an A to a G is a seventh.
^This is ALWAYS true. It will be easier for you if you just accept it. I did have some examples of why this is right. But basically what it boils down to is calling A# to F a P5 will sound fine when you're playing it since you're not labelling the note. As soon as you label it an F it becomes misleading. You would be implying that there is some kind of diminished fifth and that there is no other 6th present and so only one more note (the 7th which is some kind of G) between the F and the next A#.

If the chord were A#6 it would be A# C# E# Fx. Not A# C# F Fx. (try writing each on a staff. It's easier to use one letter for each scale degree. And better to learn it correctly right from the start. It's not a difficult concept.)

EDIT: The "Interactive Circle of Fifths" from the Website is pretty cool.


20tigers: Thanks for the correction there... I don't know what I was thinking when I said that the interval between a 5th and a 6th was a semitone. That is clearly wrong and an innocent newbie mistake. Thanks again.

On your other point, surely A to F is a sixth if you are not taking sharpd or flats into account, so in an A natural minor scale (no flats or sharps). But in the key of A# (or for the people who say that it does not exist, Bb ;-) ) you have:

A# (Bb)
C
D
D# (Eb)
F
G
A

So F is the fifth in the A# (or Bb) major scale. Am I wrong?

To all: And on another matter that has been raised on this thread, the only reason I can see (OK, it is a fairly good reason) for arguing that there is no such thing as a key of A# major, is to avoid the repetition of the letters A and D, i.e. to make it more readable by using flats.

Right, bring it on people!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
#36
Quote by ChrisN
Only read the first couple of posts.

As far as I'm concerned, any explanation of the Circle of Fifths without any kind of diagram is poor.

Nuff said.


Try reading some more of the posts for links to some diagrams. And try looking through some other pages on the referenced (and debated) site:

http://www.theguitarmaster.co.uk/staticpages/index.php?page=interactive-circle-fifths

For a nice interactive flash based tool thing.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
#37
Quote by ChangingAString
<snip>
But in the key of A# (or for the people who say that it does not exist, Bb ;-) ) you have:

A# (Bb)
C
D
D# (Eb)
F
G
A

So F is the fifth in the A# (or Bb) major scale. Am I wrong? <snip>



Where the hell do you get that bunch of notes from?
#38
Sorry. Let me clarify:

Bb (A#)
C (B#)
D (E##)
Eb (D#)
F (E#)
G (A##)
A (B##)

Going round the circle of fifths and adding a sharp each time, by the time you get to A#, you have ten sharps. Count the number of sharps in the list above = 10.

In the key of F you have one flat. Or you have 11 sharps. in the key of C, you have no flats or sharps. Or you could say that have twelve flats or twelve sharps. It's all true and it's correct, just different ways of explaining the same thing. Why would someone say that A# doesn't exist? Why would someone say that A# has 2 flats when you could say it has 10 sharps? because it's easier to remember. does F# have 6 sharps or does it have 5 sharps and an F? Or does it have 6 flats? Or does it have five flats and a B?

I think this only becomes important from a sheet-music perspective. As a beginner in musical theory who is just trying to commit the circle of fifths to memory, it might be easier to remember it like this: http://www.theguitarmaster.co.uk/staticpages/index.php?page=interactive-circle-fifths

And then if you read sheet-music then memorise it like this: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.freeguitarschool.com/images/Circle_Of_Fifths.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.freeguitarschool.com/Circle_Of_5ths.htm&h=439&w=453&sz=27&tbnid=Okyca76sOGYJ::&tbnh=123&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522circle%2Bof%2Bfifths%2522&hl=en&usg=__nUUaE5AKRlz_5YjeL4ldASTMv4E=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image&cd=1

I know which way I would rather remember it, for now at least. And if it becomes apparent later that the second way is necessary, it will be much easier to fill in the gaps as required.

Anyone's brain hurting yet?

This is fun.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
#39
Are you taking the piss?
I can't begin to start on all the false assumptions and statements you make in the last three posts.
Going to bed.
#40
Quote by R.Christie
Are you taking the piss?
I can't begin to start on all the false assumptions and statements you make in the last two posts.
Going to bed.


I'm not taking the piss, and as far as I can tell (which admittedly might not be very far) I can't see how I've made a single false statement. I'm prepared to eat humble pie though as that's what this is all about. If I'm wrong, I want to know about it. And I'd like to know why.

Night night x
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
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