#1
Hi all,

I have an Ibanez RG350EX with Floyd Rose, and i was just wondering whether the position of the springs in the back of the guitar affected the amount that i can divebomb.

By position, what i mean exactly is right now, they are looking like this: |||

but would it make any difference if i made them like this? /|\
#2
I dont really thing changing that would affect anything
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#3
it afects pressure im not exactly sure what positions create what tension I myself(and i believe Yngwie Malmsteen also) only use 2 spring, for less tension, i think it make it go out of tune quicker since my tremelo is a "floating" system
#4
what steven e said
but y would want to slant it, i cant imagine. nobodies gonna see it
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#5
Putting the springs on an angle effectively makes them resist a given trem deflection more than if they were straight. This greater resistance also brings them back to neutral with a stronger force. Here's how it works:

All springs have what's known as a spring constant (let's leave variable rate car springs out of this). This constant is the force per unit length of expansion (or contraction) of the spring. For instance, lets say the spring has a constant of 100lbs per inch (100lbs/in)

First, orient the spring directly in line with the travel of the trem. Move the trem 1/4" with the bar. With just this one spring, you would have exerted a force of 25lbs, and the spring would have stretched 1/4". Let go, and the spring has 25lbs of force initially to return it to center.

Next, place the spring at an angle of 25 degrees off the line of the trem. Move the trem 1/4", and the spring now has to stretch not that 1/4" but (0.25"/sin65deg) = 0.25/.827=0.302"
So, the spring must extend 0.302" for the same deflection of the trem unit as before.
0.302x100lbs/in=30.2lbs

Now, the force you have had to exert is about 5lbs greater than before, and the spring will have greater energy stored to return to center. Tuning stability is enhanced.

It's common to see 3 spring combinations on a claw that holds 5 (straight center and angled outers). You want greater stability, but not 5-spring stability, which would make your trem work sound a bit different and forced.
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#6
^
i ****ing hate math
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#7
Quote by dcf004
Hi all,

I have an Ibanez RG350EX with Floyd Rose, and i was just wondering whether the position of the springs in the back of the guitar affected the amount that i can divebomb.

By position, what i mean exactly is right now, they are looking like this: |||

but would it make any difference if i made them like this? /|\

It doesn't matter.

All you should be concerned about is the position of the bridge - it should be level. The angled spring congiuration inherently has more tension, but you'd only end up having to loosen the screws until the tension was back to what it was to get things back level.

The only things that limit the travel of the trem are the size of the cavities and to a slight extent the action - spring tension will only affect the resistance of the trem.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Oct 22, 2008,
#8
Quote by Vulcan
Putting the springs on an angle effectively makes them resist a given trem deflection more than if they were straight. This greater resistance also brings them back to neutral with a stronger force. Here's how it works:

All springs have what's known as a spring constant (let's leave variable rate car springs out of this). This constant is the force per unit length of expansion (or contraction) of the spring. For instance, lets say the spring has a constant of 100lbs per inch (100lbs/in)

First, orient the spring directly in line with the travel of the trem. Move the trem 1/4" with the bar. With just this one spring, you would have exerted a force of 25lbs, and the spring would have stretched 1/4". Let go, and the spring has 25lbs of force initially to return it to center.

Next, place the spring at an angle of 25 degrees off the line of the trem. Move the trem 1/4", and the spring now has to stretch not that 1/4" but (0.25"/sin65deg) = 0.25/.827=0.302"
So, the spring must extend 0.302" for the same deflection of the trem unit as before.
0.302x100lbs/in=30.2lbs

Now, the force you have had to exert is about 5lbs greater than before, and the spring will have greater energy stored to return to center. Tuning stability is enhanced.

It's common to see 3 spring combinations on a claw that holds 5 (straight center and angled outers). You want greater stability, but not 5-spring stability, which would make your trem work sound a bit different and forced.



While most people would have read over all the math and just said thanks, i gotta thank u dude, im gunna try to put the outers on an angle and see how i like it. thanks again.
#9
Did you not read my post? It's not going to make any difference to the range of the trem, all it will do is change how stiff it is.
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#10
Quote by Vulcan
Putting the springs on an angle effectively makes them resist a given trem deflection more than if they were straight. This greater resistance also brings them back to neutral with a stronger force. Here's how it works:

All springs have what's known as a spring constant (let's leave variable rate car springs out of this). This constant is the force per unit length of expansion (or contraction) of the spring. For instance, lets say the spring has a constant of 100lbs per inch (100lbs/in)

First, orient the spring directly in line with the travel of the trem. Move the trem 1/4" with the bar. With just this one spring, you would have exerted a force of 25lbs, and the spring would have stretched 1/4". Let go, and the spring has 25lbs of force initially to return it to center.

Next, place the spring at an angle of 25 degrees off the line of the trem. Move the trem 1/4", and the spring now has to stretch not that 1/4" but (0.25"/sin65deg) = 0.25/.827=0.302"
So, the spring must extend 0.302" for the same deflection of the trem unit as before.
0.302x100lbs/in=30.2lbs

Now, the force you have had to exert is about 5lbs greater than before, and the spring will have greater energy stored to return to center. Tuning stability is enhanced.

It's common to see 3 spring combinations on a claw that holds 5 (straight center and angled outers). You want greater stability, but not 5-spring stability, which would make your trem work sound a bit different and forced.



I actually understood this o_o

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#11
Quote by dcf004
While most people would have read over all the math and just said thanks, i gotta thank u dude, im gunna try to put the outers on an angle and see how i like it. thanks again.


You're welcome, but as Steven pointed out, the physical construction of your trem pocket is the determining factor for how MUCH you will be able to move your trem. My essay simply explained why one would want to angle springs, and what to expect.
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#12
Quote by steven seagull
Did you not read my post? It's not going to make any difference to the range of the trem, all it will do is change how stiff it is.



nobody loves meeeee!!!!





for a different reason,
i like moving springs around more than fine tuning screws, when i find i need more spring pull. i always worry about a screw pulling out. so i might opt for a "V" shape instead. that type of thing.
Jenneh

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#13
Quote by Vulcan
You're welcome, but as Steven pointed out, the physical construction of your trem pocket is the determining factor for how MUCH you will be able to move your trem. My essay simply explained why one would want to angle springs, and what to expect.

It explained a bit to well IMO...gave me flashbacks to GCSE Physics
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#14
Quote by steven seagull
Did you not read my post? It's not going to make any difference to the range of the trem, all it will do is change how stiff it is.


Alright, well if i wanted to increase the range of my trem, since the tremolo arm knocks on the tone knob and doesnt take much to reach the lowest range of divebombs, what can i do? because from wat i can tell, its not that it doesnt have enough room in the back to move, its that the arm doesnt have enoguh room.... sry if im not very clear.
#15
you needa level bridge.

with a level , balanced bridge, you'll get the most clearance for the arm.
Jenneh

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#16
Quote by dcf004
Alright, well if i wanted to increase the range of my trem, since the tremolo arm knocks on the tone knob and doesnt take much to reach the lowest range of divebombs, what can i do? because from wat i can tell, its not that it doesnt have enough room in the back to move, its that the arm doesnt have enoguh room.... sry if im not very clear.


Spin the arm round so it's pointing away from the fretboard and pull it.
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#17
Quote by jj1565
you needa level bridge.

with a level , balanced bridge, you'll get the most clearance for the arm.



Yeah i know, thats the problem. The bridge is perfectly parallel to the body of the guitar.

And as for spinning the arm around, thats just inconvenient and awkward.
#18
is the arm bent towards the body, even tho the bridge is level?

im asking if the arm is bent, or if the slot that holds the arm is crooked.
Jenneh

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#19
Quote by dcf004
Yeah i know, thats the problem. The bridge is perfectly parallel to the body of the guitar.

And as for spinning the arm around, thats just inconvenient and awkward.


The arm spins all the way round for a reason, use it.

If it's a good enough trick for Steve Vai and Joe Satriani then it's good enough for you. If it's too much trouble might I suggest at least moving the bar to a position where you're no longer pushing it down onto the tone knob? Like I said, there's a reason the bar moves...
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