#1
This is the only logical place i can think to post this question. Recently, the guitarist the band I'm in tells that I need to start singing in addition to my normal duties (bass, keys). I told him that i suck and could not hit a note with my voice if my life depended on it and suggested that we get a full-time singer/vocalist, and reccomended one of my freinds who could, infact, sing very well as he has had vocal lessons since he was 10. This would be the ideal choice since we are all pretty good players but garbage vocalists so getting an almost pro singer would be like a god-send.

He says no under the assumption that singers arn't musicians. They don't play instruments and don't know theory so they arn't musicians, according to him. I argue that a set a vocal chords and knowing how to use them is no different from a skilled guitarist, they both afterall hit notes, right? He acts like a douche and tells me he could never join unless he picks up an instrument and learns it, which mean i have to start singing now and i simply don't have the voice for it. People can learn guitar or bass, but i really belive you have to have a born talent to sing good.

So, even if they don't play an instrument, can singers be considered musicians?
#2
Quote by Bathory fan

So, even if they don't play an instrument, can singers be considered musicians?

a musician is someone who plays a piece of music, regardless of the instrument and yes your voice is an instrument.

that being said it sounds like the guy who veto'ing getting your friend with singing experience is being a douche imo. thats my 2 cents for what its worth. i think anyone else experienced with music will probably agree.
#3
Give the singer a tambourine.

PROBLEM SOLVED


But usually if you take singing lessons, there is some focus on the theoretical musical aspect, so I guess he knows some theory.

And even if he doesn't, his ignorance of music knowledge might bring some musical relief to your band, as he'll make the songs focus more on the actual feel and sound instead of the underlying theory.

I'm just rambling...
#4
Quote by Belgian Bastard
Give the singer a tambourine.

PROBLEM SOLVED


But usually if you take singing lessons, there is some focus on the theoretical musical aspect, so I guess he knows some theory.

And even if he doesn't, his ignorance of music knowledge might bring some musical relief to your band, as he'll make the songs focus more on the actual feel and sound instead of the underlying theory.

I'm just rambling...


no, most of that makes sense. the singer will, or should, make sure the song is actually listenable and doesnt jus become an over-technical mess. but that usually doesnt happen anyways.

and i do believe vocals are an instrument. you need to practice, learn some sort of theory, etc, etc.
Quote by monkeysintheday
I have trained a live tarantula to calm and sit on my guitar due to the awesome powers of my rocking. When I am not playing it angrily bounces about my room hitting everything that isn't me.



Quote by stef123

rageagainst64 you are a legend!
Last edited by rageagainst64 at Oct 24, 2008,
#5
Some singers are musicians. If they can contribute in a valid way to songs, and have a good musical sense, then they get extra points. Your voice is an instrument - just like any other instrument, you need to train to be good, you need to take care of it, and there are people who are good and bad.

That being said, half of the dumb****s who audition on the Idol shows are NOT musicians.
Oh no he just divided by zero again...*gets sucked into vortex*

Originally Posted by Sirwinston89
whoa man this is turning into the Dream Theater appreciation thread!!! If only every thread kicked this much ass!


You're welcome
#7
as he'll make the songs focus more on the actual feel and sound instead of the underlying theory.


That makes absolutely no sense. Music theory is a descriptive system.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musician
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singer

Obviously singers are musicians, regardless of ability.

Quote by Winsbury
the first time you pick up a guitar, do you class yourself as a musician?
Yes. Just a very bad musician. Still a musician
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#11
Quote by Archeo Avis
That makes absolutely no sense. Music theory is a descriptive system.


You've got a point here, but sometimes people will apply musical theory too much when writing a song (for example in A major) and they will do things like not playing a G because it wouldn't fit the scale.

Sure, he'd be a failed musician, but nevertheless, these situations can occur.
#12
Quote by Winsbury
then in which case, everyone in the world is a musician, just very bad ones.
Sure, why not?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#13
You've got a point here, but sometimes people will apply musical theory too much when writing a song (for example in A major) and they will do things like not playing a G because it wouldn't fit the scale.


That has nothing to do with music theory and everything to do with their own personal preference. I hate the sound of a b7 in a major key. Am I a "limited musician"?
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#14
Quote by Archeo Avis
That has nothing to do with music theory and everything to do with their own personal preference. I hate the sound of a b7 in a major key. Am I a "limited musician"?



Well, personally I love the sound of the odd dominant seventh. Dominant sevenths always sound cool to me and I couldn't imagine Funk music without the b7, so I love it.

I was just kidding about the 'failed musician' part, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone with that.
#15
Quote by Belgian Bastard
I couldn't imagine Funk music without the b7, so I love it.
Funk has that same blues concept of being sort of *Mixolydian, so a maj7 would usually be inappropriate to play. I do rather like sliding a dom7 chord from half a fret below, though, like a D#7 to E7 with the D#7 being a grace note.

*We will not discuss modes in this thread.
#16
Your friend is being an idiot. An out of tune singer is horrible to listen to. They are musicians...and many know theory.
#17
Quote by Winsbury
then in which case, everyone in the world is a musician, just very bad ones.


Except a musician is someone who does or aspires to create or perform music. Not everyone in the world does that.

Of course singers are musicians. I can't believe anyone would even suggest otherwise. Yes, I AM a singer, but I also have an honours degree in classical guitar, so I am a singer, I DO play an instrument, I DO create music, and I DO know theory.

I will go so far as to say that learning to use the instrument you were born with and have with you all the time is more difficult to learn than any instrument that might come with an instruction manual.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#18
Quote by Bathory fan
This is the only logical place i can think to post this question. Recently, the guitarist the band I'm in tells that I need to start singing in addition to my normal duties (bass, keys). I told him that i suck and could not hit a note with my voice if my life depended on it and suggested that we get a full-time singer/vocalist, and reccomended one of my freinds who could, infact, sing very well as he has had vocal lessons since he was 10. This would be the ideal choice since we are all pretty good players but garbage vocalists so getting an almost pro singer would be like a god-send.

He says no under the assumption that singers arn't musicians. They don't play instruments and don't know theory so they arn't musicians, according to him. I argue that a set a vocal chords and knowing how to use them is no different from a skilled guitarist, they both afterall hit notes, right? He acts like a douche and tells me he could never join unless he picks up an instrument and learns it, which mean i have to start singing now and i simply don't have the voice for it. People can learn guitar or bass, but i really belive you have to have a born talent to sing good.

So, even if they don't play an instrument, can singers be considered musicians?


of course... the human voice is the most expressive and sophisticated musical instrument there is... your friend is clueless
out of here
#19
Your voice IS an instrument. It can also produce a much wider range of sounds than ANY other instrument in the world today.

As for singers knowing music theory, HOW can he be so naive? Lots of singers know music theory. Steve Vai does, he sings, and he is extremely knowledgeable in music theory. Plus, you don't have to know music theory to be a musician.

Also, why would he rather have a bunch of people that sing like crap and NOT have a very good singer? It just makes the band looks terrible.
#20
Yes a vocalist is a musician.

Show him Robert Plant at the start of the Immigrant Song if he doesn't believe you. Plant was also a great vocal improvisor.

Lead guitars often imitate vocal lines - especially in blues. So when a melody is performed on an instrument it is music and when it's performed vocally it isn't??

A vocalist is a musician but not necessarily an instrumentalist.
Si
#21
Quote by 20Tigers
Yes a vocalist is a musician.

Show him Robert Plant at the start of the Immigrant Song if he doesn't believe you. Plant was also a great vocal improvisor.

Lead guitars often imitate vocal lines - especially in blues. So when a melody is performed on an instrument it is music and when it's performed vocally it isn't??

A vocalist is a musician but not necessarily an instrumentalist.


I love plant and zeppelin and all, but how is this proving singers are musicians?


But yea, totally musicians. In fact, the singers probably more of a musician then your friend, considering he hopefully is better at hearing intervals, and having good pitch, and etc etc. Basically, anything you can do on a guitar, imagine it being a bit harder to do with your voice.

Simply singing in tune is a challenge in itself.
#22
Music is sounds that we have assigned certain pitches to, distinguished from noise somehow.

Singers produce music with vocal chords. Guitarists produce music with guitar strings. Solution? Kick your guitarist out of the band and tell him that your singer is a better musician than he'll ever be. And then get your singer to play guitar as well.
#23
Quote by Bathory fan
They don't play instruments and don't know theory so they arn't musicians, according to him.


What's your friend smoking?
#24
Oh yeah, and I'd just like to add that you probably do have the voice to be a singer, never doubt yourself, it only limits your ability. Don't think of what you can do, only of what you can do. Even though it sounds like you're pulling your weight already, playing bass and keyboards, singing just takes practice, like bass and piano.
#25
Quote by rollininrhythm
I love plant and zeppelin and all, but how is this proving singers are musicians?
Any singer can take a drummers lyrics and put them to a melody the guitarist has written. Plant's vocal part in the Immigrant Song (at :08 to :15 and again at :54 to 1:03) gives me chills. In my opinion this short piece of vocal work is not only one of the most memorable and easily identifiable features of the song, but also, I believe, in rock music. I feel it is a good demonstration of the ability of a vocalist to be more than just a person that can sing a melody and memorize words but a musician in his own right that can add just as effectively to musical landscape without playing an instrument.

But maybe that's just me talking shit I don't know. But in my opinion get him to watch some Led Zep footage and you'll see how Plant was every bit a musician.

Of course there are probably a million other examples you can use but that was just one that sprung to mind.
Si
#27
A singer is a musician. But the new guy should learn to play guitar. It's relatively easy and will expand your abilities as a band, even if he doesn't play in every song.
#28
Quote by Bathory fan
This is the only logical place i can think to post this question. Recently, the guitarist the band I'm in tells that I need to start singing in addition to my normal duties (bass, keys). I told him that i suck and could not hit a note with my voice if my life depended on it and suggested that we get a full-time singer/vocalist, and reccomended one of my freinds who could, infact, sing very well as he has had vocal lessons since he was 10. This would be the ideal choice since we are all pretty good players but garbage vocalists so getting an almost pro singer would be like a god-send.

He says no under the assumption that singers arn't musicians. They don't play instruments and don't know theory so they arn't musicians, according to him. I argue that a set a vocal chords and knowing how to use them is no different from a skilled guitarist, they both afterall hit notes, right? He acts like a douche and tells me he could never join unless he picks up an instrument and learns it, which mean i have to start singing now and i simply don't have the voice for it. People can learn guitar or bass, but i really belive you have to have a born talent to sing good.

So, even if they don't play an instrument, can singers be considered musicians?



Most people we would usually consider musicians arent actually.. they are instrumentalists.
A musician by popular definition is person who plays music, but really its person who makes music.
Thus, all the guys playing covers absolutely perfectly on youtube arent musicians usually. They are just instrumentalists.

So..
A good singer, who will do something interesting with his voice will be a musician. Just as a lame guitarist who just copies other peoples licks will not be a musician.