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#1
Hey, i'm rather shite at theory but...

What would, for instance, Ab become when you make it minor?

Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab Now if you flatten the 3rd, 6th and 7th.....

Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab it doesn't work. What the hell are you supposed to write?

I only ask because there is no Cb or Fb, or would this be a case of numbering it like a blues scale?

in which case....

Ab Bb B Db Eb E Gb Ab?
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 7 8

But then my book which says you MUST (it even stresses must in bold) have every note in a certain scale is wrong? I'm well confused.
Last edited by philbertfwog at Oct 28, 2008,
#2
yes, Cb and Fb exist. just like Cbb and Fbb exist.
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb is correct
#4
Yeah Cb is B, but they're still there for the purpose of this exercise and stuff. It's just another way of writing it that sounds the same, it's weird but that's the way it is.
Quote by Andron17
Go away, I have an erection.


Bassist for Half My Kingdom.
#6
Quote by philbertfwog
Yeah but technically Cb is B ?


no, technically Cb is enharmonic to B. but in this case they function differently.

Cb = minor 3rd
B = #2nd
#7
Quote by z4twenny
no, technically Cb is enharmonic to B. but in this case they function differently.

Cb = minor 3rd
B = #2nd


No help at all. I only wanna know what to WRITE. Obv i know how to play it on a guitar....
#8
It's often easier to think of minor scales in comparison to their relative majors, no to the majors with the same tonic. Relative majors are the major scales that share the same notes as the minor scale. For example A minor is the relative minor of C major.

C major: C D E F G A B
A (natural) minor: A B C D E F G
So they both have the same notes. Comparing these two is much easier than comparing A minor and A major.

This is useful because then you will never get a scale like Ab minor, which could be expressed much more easily as G# minor, because it's relative major is Cb major which you would always use B major for instead (and it's relative minor is G# minor).

To work out the relative minor of a major scale you just find the 6th note and it is "that note" minor. This is better than changing the x major scale into the x minor scale, because, as you know that it will contain the same notes as the relative major, as long as the relative major doesn't have a more simple enharmonic equivalent neither will the relative minor.

And the more simple equivalent to Ab minor is G# minor:
G# A# B C# D# E F# G#
#9
With diatonic scales (Major and Minor), you can only use each letter once.

A diatonic semitone is one where there are two adjacent letters.

A chromatic semitone is one where both letters are the same, but one will have an accidental.
#10
there's a simple rule when it comes to writing scales, u must have 1 of each letter in the scale!

and though scales sometimes have E.G F## in a G# harmonic and melodic minor scale and such, its still correct
#11
Quote by philbertfwog
No help at all. I only wanna know what to WRITE. Obv i know how to play it on a guitar....

No, it's very helpful. The two have completely different functions in this context, and you should know the difference so that you can use the appropriate name.
#12
^ thank you

you kinda need to know how to use them in context if you want to use this info to write.
#13
Quote by philbertfwog
What would Ab become when you make it minor?
The rules are simple:
  • Each natural note name (A, B, C, D, E, F and G) must appear once and only once in any given scale listing.
  • The maximum number of sharps or flats you can use in any key signature is seven. This works out to one sharp or flat for each of the natural notes.
  • Relative keys share the same key signature.
  • Relative keys are separated by three half-steps, with the major key at the upper end of the interval. For example, G major and E minor share the same key signature, one sharp. G is a minor third (three half-steps) above E, and E is a minor third below G.
  • To convert a major key to minor, either add three flats or subtract three sharps from the key signature. Using your example, Ab major's key signature is four flats. To determine Ab minor's signature, add three flats to produce a signature consisting of seven flats (the maximum, by the way - see above). As another example, E major's signature is four sharps. E minor's signature is therefore one sharp (4 - 3 = 1).
  • If adding three flats to the major key's signature produces more than seven flats, you must use the key's enharmonic. For example, Db major's signature is five flats. Adding three flats produces eight flats. TILT!!!. In this case, you must use Db minor's enharmonic, C# minor (four sharps).
  • If the major key's signature has two or fewer sharps, subtract three from the number of sharps anyway and use the absolute value of the total as the number of flats. For example, D major's signature is two sharps. To convert D major to D minor, subtract three from the number of sharps to produce the number of flats: 2 - 3 = -1. The absolute value of -1 is 1, giving us a key signature for D minor of one flat.

By far the easiest thing to do, however, is to memorize the Circle of Fifths.

Any questions?
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#14
Cheers for all the help! Yeah i need to memorise all the theory. It's just a pain in the arse, as i'm sure all you that have are well aware of!
#16
Hey thanks a lot guys. I wasn't intentionally trying to disrespect your advice. I just meant the way you explained it didn't make it clearer to me. I've started learning the circle of fifths thanks to your advice and i must say it's helping!
#17
Quote by philbertfwog
Yeah but technically Cb is B ?


The whole thing about Cb and B's and Fb's and E's and the whole thing about only having one of each note letter, made a lot more sense to me when I started thinking about how music is written in standard notation. In standard notation, each line and each space between lines represents a different note letter. So there's only space for one of each note letter. If you are playing within a scale where let's say all the C's are sharp, then you put a # close to the staff where the C goes. That means "whenever you see a C, play a C# instead, until I tell you otherwise". Now if you were in a scale where there was a C and a C#, you couldn't do that because they would appear in the same space between lines (because they are both a kind of C), and you couldn't notate that the entire line to be sharp, because of the regular C's. Instead you'd have to a notate every single C# individually as # instead of the whole line which would be really inconvenient.
This is far from the whole story, but this one of the origins of why notes are considered this way.
#18
Cb is not actually the same as B believe it or not. There are actually differences in the sound textures. howver this is absolutly no use in what your asking so sorry lol
#21
Quote by one vision
Really? How so?
Because he's full of shit, to be perfectly frank. We discuss music in standard Western terms unless specifically stated otherwise.

In modern Western music, B and Cb have the exact same sound.
#23
Quote by Boomjosh
Cb is not actually the same as B believe it or not. There are actually differences in the sound textures. howver this is absolutly no use in what your asking so sorry lol


Not in 12-TET, no. There is no difference on the guitar (or the piano for that matter).
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#24
^(One Vision) No no no, he said they are not the same pitch, which is false. No musically educated person disputes that they have different functions, however.
#26
Quote by Boomjosh
Cb is not actually the same as B believe it or not. There are actually differences in the sound textures. howver this is absolutly no use in what your asking so sorry lol


Well, on equal tempered scale instruments, they are the same exact note. I know what you're saying, I think. And on some instruments like a violin, flute, etc, you can play the natural intervals to good effect, in some circumstances. I suppose you could fudge it on a guitar, somewhat. But it's a stretch...

But strictly speaking, in our current system of music, what you said is not correct.

Grep.
#28
Quote by bangoodcharlote
They don't exist.

+1

I've heard this sort of stuff in MT before, that (bowed) string players make B flatter than Cb, but this is rubbish.

I've actually been told by a professional conductor that Cb is exactly the same sound as B natural.
#29
Hahaha even i know they are the same note.

If played on a piano or something where pitch deviations are not possible (ie string bending etc) they are the exact same note. The same goes for everything. The person who said otherwise really has no musical future lolzzzzzzzzzzzz.
#30
Quote by z4twenny
no, technically Cb is enharmonic to B. but in this case they function differently.

Cb = minor 3rd
B = #2nd


I would say this is a very helpful answer, tells you they are enharmonically equivalent however function differently. If this answer is of no help to ts then I suggest going back to the begining of interval theory and the major scale, as it sounds you may be jumping forward a few steps ahead of yourself.
#31
Because he's full of shit, to be perfectly frank. We discuss music in standard Western terms unless specifically stated otherwise.

In modern Western music, B and Cb have the exact same sound.



Wrong? Yes. Full of shit? No. Cut that damn attitude out.


And +1 to the circle of fifths comment. That's the best way to get key signatures behind you once and for all.
#32
Quote by 12345abcd3
I've heard this sort of stuff in MT before, that (bowed) string players make B flatter than Cb, but this is rubbish.


I know that some string players do have issues with playing thirds "out of tune" for 12-tet - and would play "in tune" if playing solo.

I also know of a guitarist who played with a band that had keyboards tuned to an alternative tuning system, and he would bend notes or fret with more pressure to keep "in tune".

For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#33
Quote by Freepower
I know that some string players do have issues with playing thirds "out of tune" for 12-tet - and would play "in tune" if playing solo.


I doubt very many have that problem. Players of non-fixed pitch instruments and singers are less accurate than one might think; usually only to within 20-25 cents. The differences between 12-edo thirds and purer ones are narrower than that.
Last edited by Dodeka at Oct 29, 2008,
#34
Quote by Freepower

For everything you need to know - gpb0216.

That's the username of the guy who said this stuff before, isn't it?

And, as I said, a profesional conductor told me that Cb and B natural have exactly the same sound, so i'd trusr him more than some guys on an internet forum (no offence meant, but you can see where I'm coming from).
Last edited by 12345abcd3 at Oct 29, 2008,
#35
Quote by 12345abcd3
That's the username of the guy who said this stuff before, isn't it?

And, as I said, a proffersional conductor told me that Cb and B natural have exactly the same sound...


They're exactly the same pitches...but only when we force them to be exactly the same pitches through tempering. Orchestral strings, trombones and singers aren't temperamentally restricted.
Last edited by Dodeka at Oct 29, 2008,
#36
Quote by Dodeka
I doubt very many have that problem. Players of non-fixed pitch instruments and singers are less accurate than one might think; usually only to within 20-25 cents. The differences between 12-edo thirds and purer ones are narrower than that.

Surely you exaggerate... 20-25 cents?? If a violinist played that out of tune, I'd hear it. Unless, perhaps, he was playing at a crazy speed. If a guitarist bends a note 20 cents off, it would drive me nuts. Even the very high pitches on a piano sometimes annoy me. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

20-25 cents is very out of tune! I guarantee it would sound terrible to me if I heard that.

Grep.
Last edited by Grep at Oct 29, 2008,
#37
Quote by Grep
Surely you exaggerate... 20-25 cents?? If a violinist played that out of tune, I'd hear it. Unless, perhaps, he was playing at a crazy speed. If a guitarist bends a note 20 cents off, it would drive me nuts. Even the very high pitches on a keyboard sometimes annoy me. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

20-25 cents is very out of tune! I guarantee it would sound terrible to me if I heard that.

Grep.


We can discriminate minute pitch differences when we really concentrate on an isolated pair of them, but in musical contexts we'd be hard pressed to tell the difference...

From here:

"It is also significant that the accuracy of trained singers in
producing a specific pitch is usually no better than about 20 cents (Mürbe et al. 2004)"


And from here:

"...In the 1930s, Carl Seashore measured the pitch accuracy of real performers and showed that singers and violinists are remarkably inaccurate. For non-fixed-pitch instruments, the pitch accuracy is on the order of 25 cents."
#38
Quote by Dodeka
They're exactly the same pitches...but only when we force them to be exactly the same pitches through tempering. Orchestral strings, trombones and singers aren't temperamentally restricted.

I understand that, but even then Cb and B natural are played as the same pitch on string instruments. Our ears have grown used to the 12 Tet system so how would a string player know what to play for a Cb if they've never heard one that's different from a B natural.

And BTW, this conductor was talking to me considering me a violinist, so he could have told me to play flat/sharp because I would have been able to.

Edit: So I can understand your post about the 20-25 cents out thing, how many cents are there between semitones?
#39
Quote by Dodeka
We can discriminate minute pitch differences when we really concentrate on an isolated pair of them, but in musical contexts we'd be hard pressed to tell the difference...

From here:

Wow, I am really surprised at those results! Thanks for putting them up.

Grep.
#40
Quote by 12345abcd3
Edit: So I can understand your post about the 20-25 cents out thing, how many cents are there between semitones?


100 cents to a 12-edo semitone.


Quote by Grep
Wow, I am really surprised at those results! Thanks for putting them up.

Grep.


I was surprised, too. It gradually came to seem more reasonable to me.

Timbre plays a part, but there's a good deal of flexibility to what we perceive as being in tune.
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