#1
hey guys so i wrote up some major scales in three octaves (trying to master the major scale atm)

im pretty new to theory but, could i just do vertical scales on every string and if i was making a solo or improvising with the a major scale could i play any notes anywhere on the fretboard? (learn vertical scale on every string and just mix it up when i play so i can use the whole fretboard...)
#2
Playing the major scale doesn't help you master it.

Understand the theory, and you're one step closer to it.
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
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I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
#3
Quote by SilverDark
Playing the major scale doesn't help you master it.

Understand the theory, and you're one step closer to it.

you didn't answer my question at all...

I knoe the theory to create major scales (WWHWWWH) and i'm working on making different forms of scales all over the fretboard.


My question is in the first post...
#4
...I didn't understand what you were asking...

Do you mean 1- to study and analyze the notes for a major scale on the entire fretboard,

or 2- wanting to play other notes than the ones in the major key?

1st- Yeah, and also, learn all the notes on the fretboard.

2nd- You can, but it all depends on context.

And the theory behind the major scale isn't just constructing a major scale, it goes deeper than that.
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's like you read my mind!

I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
Last edited by SilverDark at Nov 3, 2008,
#5
Quote by SilverDark
...I didn't understand what you were asking...

Do you mean 1- to study and analyze the notes for a major scale on the entire fretboard,

or 2- wanting to play other notes than the ones in the major key?

1st- Yeah, and also, learn all the notes on the fretboard.

2nd- You can, but it all depends on context.

i know all the notes on the fretboard, my question was more uhh

you know the low e string? if i made an a major scale just on the low e string, then another on the a string, another on the d string, g,b, and high e

could i play through all those if i was improvising with the A major scale?

(basically if we know the notes are A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A could i play ANY a/b/c# etc... note on the fretboard aslong as it's in context obviously?)
#6
Quote by -themask-
i know all the notes on the fretboard, my question was more uhh

you know the low e string? if i made an a major scale just on the low e string, then another on the a string, another on the d string, g,b, and high e

could i play through all those if i was improvising with the A major scale?

(basically if we know the notes are A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A could i play ANY a/b/c# etc... note on the fretboard aslong as it's in context obviously?)

I... I'd think it would sound like shit. You'd really need to know what you're ****ing with to play six major scales at the same time over a chord progression...
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's like you read my mind!

I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
#7
(basically if we know the notes are A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A could i play ANY a/b/c# etc... note on the fretboard aslong as it's in context obviously?)


This is correct, yes.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#8
learn the five groupings on the fretboard accross the strings and also learn on each string then you can tie them all together and you have the whole fretboard available. It takes a while, just learn 1 key first, g maj is good to start.
Last edited by macjac at Nov 3, 2008,
#9
Quote by SilverDark
I... I'd think it would sound like shit. You'd really need to know what you're ****ing with to play six major scales at the same time over a chord progression...

ok thanks, what about this scale i wrote up tho?

E-------------------------------------------------10-12-14-16-17------
B-----------------------------------9-10-12-14---------------------
G--------------------------7-9-11-------------------------------
D---------------6-7-9-11-----------------------------------------
A--------5-7-9-------------------------------------------------
E-5-7-9--------------------------------------------------------
#10
Quote by -themask-
ok thanks, what about this scale i wrote up tho?

E-------------------------------------------------10-12-14-16-17------
B-----------------------------------9-10-12-14---------------------
G--------------------------7-9-11-------------------------------
D---------------6-7-9-11-----------------------------------------
A--------5-7-9-------------------------------------------------
E-5-7-9--------------------------------------------------------

That's an A major scale, in three octaves. That is ok.
If you play guitar, please don't waste your time in The Pit, and please instead educate yourself in the Musician Talk forum, where you can be missing out on valuable info.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's like you read my mind!

I got meself a self-approving sig. Kick. Ass.
#11
Quote by SilverDark
That's an A major scale, in three octaves. That is ok.

thanks dude!

sorry haha i've been working really hard this week on memorising the notes on the fretboard/learning the theory to compose scales.

All i've ever known are the 1-2 octave horizontal boxes which can make improvising pretty lame after a while, so i worked on that 3 octave one so it would spice up my improvising. so i did it correctly??
#12
I think I see what you mean. Basically, know that same scale and all it's notes on each string, from one side of the fretboard, to the other. Then, of course, you can grab those same notes from other strings.

And yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it. I try and look at the scales in as many ways as I can. Along one string, in strict position playing, etc. You should be able to play up and down one string, or stay in position, at will, IMO. The idea is to go where the music and it's articulation dictates. For example, be able to do a slide to another note (and position) and just keep going as if nothing happened, and not get lost.

When you can freely play in position, and move up and down the neck whenever you want, I think you've achieved a high level of fretboard knowledge and freedom. All these little patterns we learn, whether on one string, or in position, are stepping stones to a whole fretboard approach. But at some point, you want to move beyond all that to a point where you just know the whole fretboard, period. In other words, learn all the patterns, then forget all that crap and play.

So I'd recommend you do what you're describing, but don't neglect other ways of looking at it, like position playing, either. Eventually it'll all just blend and you'll be able to move beyond that.

BTW, for some points of view on that, you might look at "The Advancing Guitarist" by Mick Goodrick. Excellent book, that many people highly recommend, for a good reason.

Hope I got what you were trying to say, and hope this helps

Grep.
#13
thanks grep, so guys if i was improvising over the E major scale-i could take any note i want from here?

E Major-(E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E)
E-0-2-4-5-7-9-11-12-14-16-17-19-21-23-24------------------------
B-0-2-4-5-7-9-10-12-14-16-17-19-21-22-24------------------------
G-1-2-4-6-8-9-11-13-14-16-18-20-21-23----------------------------
D-1-2-4-6-7-9-11--13-14-16-18-19-21-23----------------------------
A-0-2-4-6-7-9-11-12-14-16-18-19-21-23-24-------------------------
E-0-2-4-5-7-9-11-12-14-16-17-19-21-23-24-------------------------

(took a lot of work writing that down, are there any websites that have all these?)

I could do the same thing for any other scale or mode right?
#14
I'll just assume you found the right notes, there

Well, I don't know a site that has them laid out that way, off hand. But one thing you could do is download TuxGuitar:

http://www.tuxguitar.com.ar/home.html

With that, you can select any scale/mode from it's list and it will display all the notes in that scale, all over the fretboard. It does tons more cool stuff, but that's one thing it does. It works on just about any platform. I use Linux, but I know it works fine on Windows too. It's free and open source.

Mind you, I don't think I've ever learned the fretboard better than lately, as I learn to sight-read standard notation. I so wish I'd just started out that way in the first place, which is why I bother to mention it to you. And I just can't say enough good things about Leavitt's "Modern Method for Guitar". In the end, I think that's the very best way to learn the fretboard in depth.

Grep.
#15
Quote by Grep
I'll just assume you found the right notes, there

Well, I don't know a site that has them laid out that way, off hand. But one thing you could do is download TuxGuitar:

http://www.tuxguitar.com.ar/home.html

With that, you can select any scale/mode from it's list and it will display all the notes in that scale, all over the fretboard. It does tons more cool stuff, but that's one thing it does. It works on just about any platform. I use Linux, but I know it works fine on Windows too. It's free and open source.

Mind you, I don't think I've ever learned the fretboard better than lately, as I learn to sight-read standard notation. I so wish I'd just started out that way in the first place, which is why I bother to mention it to you. And I just can't say enough good things about Leavitt's "Modern Method for Guitar". In the end, I think that's the very best way to learn the fretboard in depth.

Grep.

thanks ill download that and give it a shot, so would you recommend me just skip the patterns/boxes for now and put the time in to learn it in depth like this?

I mean the notes above are soooo numerous that i can just play all over and let the music go where it wants

and i can use this for other modes/scales right? like if i had A Harmonic Minor i can just find out all the notes all over so i'm not limited ?
#17
Quote by -themask-
thanks grep, so guys if i was improvising over the E major scale-i could take any note i want from here?

E Major-(E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E)
E-0-2-4-5-7-9-11-12-14-16-17-19-21-23-24------------------------
B-0-2-4-5-7-9-10-12-14-16-17-19-21-22-24------------------------
G-1-2-4-6-8-9-11-13-14-16-18-20-21-23----------------------------
D-1-2-4-6-7-9-11--13-14-16-18-19-21-23----------------------------
A-0-2-4-6-7-9-11-12-14-16-18-19-21-23-24-------------------------
E-0-2-4-5-7-9-11-12-14-16-17-19-21-23-24-------------------------

(took a lot of work writing that down, are there any websites that have all these?)

I could do the same thing for any other scale or mode right?


Yes to all those questions.

The websites I cannot remember as I don't use em, but google it.
#18
Quote by Freepower
Yes to all those questions.

The websites I cannot remember as I don't use em, but google it.

thanks dude, so why do people even bother learning scales?

wouldn't this be so much better after you get it down?
#19
Quote by -themask-
thanks dude, so why do people even bother learning scales?
I would imagine it having something to do with them forming the basis of Western music.
#20
I think you misunderstand him. This is learning scales. What most people do is learn a "shape" or "pattern" and assume that is the scale. A scale is just a selection of notes arranged in an order. If you apply the most basic music theory -

A) that you can find another position of the same note by moving it "up a string" and "down the fretboard" 5 frets.

eg,

---
-1-
-5-
-10-
-15-
-20-


B) that notes repeat every 12 semitones/frets.

-8-20


Combine the two rules and you can see that logically, every single scale covers the entire fretboard, and that there are only two rules that dictate where you can find the notes. Obviously, lots of shortcuts and methods can be derived from studying these rules, but that's the long and short of it.

Does that answer your questions?
#21
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I would imagine it having something to do with them forming the basis of Western music.

ok well for chord forming and stuff i could understand, but if your goal is improvising wouldn't learning every note possible be much better?
#23
Quote by Freepower
I think you misunderstand him. This is learning scales. What most people do is learn a "shape" or "pattern" and assume that is the scale. A scale is just a selection of notes arranged in an order. If you apply the most basic music theory -

A) that you can find another position of the same note by moving it "up a string" and "down the fretboard" 5 frets.

eg,

---
-1-
-5-
-10-
-15-
-20-


B) that notes repeat every 12 semitones/frets.

-8-20


Combine the two rules and you can see that logically, every single scale covers the entire fretboard, and that there are only two rules that dictate where you can find the notes. Obviously, lots of shortcuts and methods can be derived from studying these rules, but that's the long and short of it.

Does that answer your questions?


yes, thanks man.

so this is just basically learning the scales fully/in depth then right
#24
Bingo.

You should be aware of as many ways to "navigate" those notes as possible, try moving through it in intervals, arpeggios and sequences as well, as this'll build "clever fingers" that stay in key by themselves, as well as give you plenty of cool sounds to use when improv'ing. Check out edg's scaleome project for some examples.
#25
Right, what Freepower said.

IMO, don't avoid the "boxes" either. They're heavily involved in strict position playing, which I think is very much worth it. Just don't *only* learn the boxes. Up and down each string is totally useful, as well.

Yeah, I think sight reading is the best way to learn it all through and through. But I, in fact, do use box type shapes. Not CAGED (though they're ok), but 7 "Berklee" patterns, in my case, so I can slide/shift over one note and always be in a pattern. There's no cracks to get lost in where I'm between patterns. But feel free to at least start with CAGED. When I sight read, I use a position, or box, and I happen to know all the notes in it, and what finger to use for each note. And I can shift and get to another pattern, that I also know. And I can just play up and down one or two strings, or whatever. Don't have to think about it much, anymore.

So I end up with the freedom to go wherever the music takes me. Still a major work in progress though! Learning position playing is not a matter of a few months. It takes years. Totally worth it.

One of the reason for the boxes, imo, is to get them into your fingers so you can find the notes without pause. Also good for finding all the arpeggios and chords across the fretboard, and relating them directly to the scale notes. Just learning the notes across the entire fretboard doesn't help me that much, alone. One way or another, those patterns exist on the guitar, in an objective way, and I want to deal with them explicitly. And know that when I'm in a certain position, I want to know what note is under each finger. I don't want to be forced to move for a note, nor do I want to be forced to stay where I am for a note.

In the end, you end up learning every note across the fretboard. But break it into bite sized chunks so you don't get overwhelmed. To me, those diagrams showing every note on the fretboard all at once aren't that useful except as reference. It's just too much to take in all at once, for me.

Hope that clears up my approach (with only slight rambling ), and my suggested way of approaching it. It's a pretty standard way, and certainly matches up with the method book I mentioned. I'm sure it's not the only way, but it's working like a charm for me.

Grep.
#26
Instead of you smart asses just saying don't play the major scale, why don't you explain it and how to use it or provide a link for those too lazy to look at the sticky. I'm not saying I do this but yes some people are lazy and don't read stickies and just saying the same thing over doesn't fix the problem either. So don't give an ambigous answer as "Playing the major scale doesn't help you master it. Understand the theory, and you're one step closer to it." Instead just stfu.

/End rant
#27
I honestly believe learning the shapes is useless if you plan on learning the scales and the notes on the fretboard.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.


Quote by MiKe Hendryckz
theory states 1+1=2 sometimes in music 1+1=3.
#28
Quote by amd123
Instead of you smart asses just saying don't play the major scale, why don't you explain it and how to use it or provide a link for those too lazy to look at the sticky. I'm not saying I do this but yes some people are lazy and don't read stickies and just saying the same thing over doesn't fix the problem either. So don't give an ambigous answer as "Playing the major scale doesn't help you master it. Understand the theory, and you're one step closer to it." Instead just stfu.

/End rant


Did you read beyond the first response?

Quote by The_Sophist
I honestly believe learning the shapes is useless if you plan on learning the scales and the notes on the fretboard.


The shapes are scales...
The only reason to learn shapes is to help you remember where other notes in the scale are compared to each other.
Now there is a difference between memorizing a shape and actually learning what a shape does. Don't just get stuck playing in a shape because you know that you'll be in key. It's better to learn what exactly you are doing.
Jesus loves you.
#29
you can hit any note on the fretboard as long it is in the major scale; any A, any B, any C# so on.
#30
Quote by amd123
Instead of you smart asses just saying don't play the major scale, why don't you explain it and how to use it or provide a link for those too lazy to look at the sticky. I'm not saying I do this but yes some people are lazy and don't read stickies and just saying the same thing over doesn't fix the problem either. So don't give an ambigous answer as "Playing the major scale doesn't help you master it. Understand the theory, and you're one step closer to it." Instead just stfu.

/End rant

Instead of your dumb ass resurrecting a post that's going on 5 months old just to make a response that proves you haven't thoroughly read through this thread, how about you just do the shutting the f*ck up?