#1
Hi again, I think Im having my own personal "national ask MT lots of questions" week, as I don't act as a TS very often.

Basically I just need some confirmation that I understand this....

I've come across a 15/8 time signature. Am I correct in saying that this is derived from a simple 5/4 with triplets? So essentially it's 5 beats in a bar, but each beat has an eighth note triplet (or dotted quarter note)?

So in total, there are 5 dotted quarter notes in a bar of 15/8!

Thanks in advance,
M
#2
its basically 15 semiquaver beats i think. The 8 would mean semiquavers and the 15 would mean 15 quavers beats per bar. so 15 semiquavers per bar.
#3
yep, its 5/4 with triplets
nick_b is currently obsessed with:
Pokemon
Pinch Harmonics
12/8 timing
7/8 timing
Lamb of God
Rise Against
Regina Spektor
Dream Theater
and many others...
#4
Quote by steelfingers
its basically 15 semiquaver beats i think. The 8 would mean semiquavers and the 15 would mean 15 quavers beats per bar. so 15 semiquavers per bar.


i had no idea people still used the word semiquaver. [btw dont you mean quaver, not semiquaver? i think semi is 16th note]

im not really sure what your question is, to be honest. are you asking whether 15/8 is somehow just another way of writing another time signature? confused here
Last edited by Divided_Eye at Nov 5, 2008,
#5
It describes five beats per bar, with each beat having the duration of a dotted quarter note. A triplet describes three notes played in the space of two. Compound time signatures have nothing to do with triplets.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#6
Quote by Divided_Eye
you asking whether 15/8 is somehow just another way of writing another time signature? confused here

Yeah, basically. Hence this quote...

Quote by mdc
Am I correct in saying that this is derived from a simple 5/4 with triplets?

...but I just wanted to be sure that I've broke it down correctly in terms of the note values.

Quote by nick_b
yep, its 5/4 with triplets

Cheers
#7
Quote by steelfingers
its basically 15 semiquaver beats i think. The 8 would mean semiquavers and the 15 would mean 15 quavers beats per bar. so 15 semiquavers per bar.

15/8 is a compound meter, there are 5 dotted crotchet beats, not 15 semiquavers. Also, the 8 would represent an eight of a whole note, a quaver.
Edit: It definitely isn't 5/4 with triplets.
Quote by Metalfreak777
Dude if i were you i'd look more at bands like Dragonforce, Dragonland, Dream Theatre and Power Quest, most of their songs are either in E major, A major, C major or D majhor

Last edited by Mayano at Nov 5, 2008,
#8
Quote by Divided_Eye
i had no idea people still used the word semiquaver. [btw dont you mean quaver, not semiquaver? i think semi is 16th note]

im not really sure what your question is, to be honest. are you asking whether 15/8 is somehow just another way of writing another time signature? confused here


yep soz lol quaver. havent played piano for a while, last played it a month ago, was learning Wait For Sleep by Dream Theater. and yep people still use the word semiquaver, music on a stave may be harder than tabs but it pays off, you have way better timing, theory knowledge ect. and theory DOES matter. my friend has been playing for 7 years (thats considered long to me since were still 14, well hes 16 coz he got kept back in kindergarden LOL) but he cant even play in time when we jam. you should see his attempt at Mettalica's Orion.

---EPIC FAIL!!---
#9
Quote by Archeo Avis
Compound time signatures have nothing to do with triplets.

Oh, it's just that I read somewhere that a 6/8 is derived from a simple 2/4 with triplets. 1 2 3 4 5 6
#10
Quote by steelfingers

---EPIC FAIL!!---

Oh sweet irony...
Quote by Metalfreak777
Dude if i were you i'd look more at bands like Dragonforce, Dragonland, Dream Theatre and Power Quest, most of their songs are either in E major, A major, C major or D majhor

#11
Quote by mdc
Oh, it's just that I read somewhere that a 6/8 is derived from a simple 2/4 with triplets. 1 2 3 4 5 6


one more thing, you usually wouldn't use triplets in time signature. triplets are to be used as a little technique or so, but it isn't meant to be a timing. use 15/8 to refer to it.
#12
Quote by mdc
Oh, it's just that I read somewhere that a 6/8 is derived from a simple 2/4 with triplets. 1 2 3 4 5 6


Triplets have nothing to do with it. 6/8 uses a dotted quarter note as the beat unit, which can be divided into three eighth notes. Three eighth notes played in the space of three eighth notes are...three eighth notes. Nothing more. Playing three of something does not magically make it a triplet.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#13
15/8 is usually thought of a compound version of 5/4 though this is not the only way it can be subdivided.

If you listen to Dream Theaters, In The Name of God, there is a part in which it phrases 15/8 as three groups of 5/8 and than as a compound time signatrue, so like your saying, yes its a compound version of 5/4 (or 5/4 w/ 8th note triplets)

but its not the only way it can be subdivided.

For another example, another Dream Theater song, its in 9/8

9/8 is a compound time signature, or Compound Triple.

But in "Voices" its phrased, 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 1

So instead of being phrased.

1 + a 2 + a 3 + a

Its phrased as 8/8 (4/4) with an added Quaver.

I may be completley wrong, I would not say that compound time signatures have nothing to do with triplets, sure the differences are many, but a 8th triplet devides a crotchet into three equal parts (im aware the the forming of triplets is 3 notes in the time of two) and in a compound meter, each beat is a dotted (three part) note.

And heres the "Voices" song I was talking about

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JDGSvbpB9Kg
#14
but a 8th triplet devides a crotchet into three equal parts


Right, except that compound time signatures don't use a crotchet as the beat unit, so we're not talking about dividing a crotchet into three equal parts. We're talking about playing three notes in the space of three.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#15
I understand that, hence my saying, comound time signatures are time signatures where the beat value is dottted, I was just saying that I dont think saying compound time signatures and triplets have NOTHING in common, was completley true. Anyway, whatever.

The similarity being, both triplets, and compound time signatures have 3 notes per beat.
Last edited by Galvanise69 at Nov 5, 2008,
#16
Quote by mdc
Hi again, I think Im having my own personal "national ask MT lots of questions" week, as I don't act as a TS very often.

Basically I just need some confirmation that I understand this....

I've come across a 15/8 time signature. Am I correct in saying that this is derived from a simple 5/4 with triplets? So essentially it's 5 beats in a bar, but each beat has an eighth note triplet (or dotted quarter note)?

So in total, there are 5 dotted quarter notes in a bar of 15/8!

Thanks in advance,
M



you can't categorically tell METER from time signature... especially not with more complex ones like 15's

I'm amazed to see so many otherwise knowledgable posters get it wrong in this thread - a time signature of 15/8 does not give you enough information to decide its meter is 5 beats
out of here
Last edited by inflatablefilth at Nov 5, 2008,
#17
Cheers for the example Galv, and thank you everyone.

I think I was just confusing myself with the difference between eighth note triplets and dotted quarter notes.
#18
Quote by Galvanise69
The similarity being, both triplets, and compound time signatures have 3 notes per beat.
One could argue that anything (extensively) invloving triplets should be written in 12/8 or 6/8 (or 9/8...whatever).

What Arch is trying to say is that in 12/8 time, you don't have the "3" sign above the 3 beamed notes like you would in a triplet. 12/8 sounds like triplets, but you write it in 12/8 to make the piece easier to read and write by avoiding extensive use of triplets.
#19
I'm amazed to see so many otherwise knowledgable posters get it wrong in this thread - a time signature of 15/8 does not give you enough information to decide its meter is 5 beats


Without some form of qualification, 15/8 would almost always represent a compound time signature and would, yes, have five beats per bar. It can be used any number of ways, but <number greater than three but divisible by three>/8 almost unfailingly describes a specific number of beats.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#20
Quote by bangoodcharlote
One could argue that anything (extensively) invloving triplets should be written in 12/8 or 6/8 (or 9/8...whatever).

That's the reason anything is written in compound time, isn't it?

What Arch is trying to say is that in 12/8 time, you don't have the "3" sign above the 3 beamed notes like you would in a triplet. 12/8 sounds like triplets, but you write it in 12/8 to make the piece easier to read and write by avoiding extensive use of triplets.

But he didn't say that, he said compound signatures have nothing to do with triplets. A quaver in a compound signature is the same as a triplet quaver is its relative simple signature, so they do have something to do with triplets.
#21
Quote by bangoodcharlote
One could argue that anything (extensively) invloving triplets should be written in 12/8 or 6/8 (or 9/8...whatever).

What Arch is trying to say is that in 12/8 time, you don't have the "3" sign above the 3 beamed notes like you would in a triplet. 12/8 sounds like triplets, but you write it in 12/8 to make the piece easier to read and write by avoiding extensive use of triplets.



Mmm, If a whole peice is triplets in 3/4 its far easier to be written as 9/8 unless the entire rest of the band is playing in straight groups in 3/4 this case is the same as youve already pounted out.

I understand that in a compound time signature you dont have a triplet grouping, though I've seen a couple of people try too.

What I was trying to point out that compound time signatures and triplets are DEFINATLEY not the same, one is 3 notes in the time of two equal notes, the other is a dotted beat value. They do have an element in common.
#22
Quote by Galvanise69
I understand that in a compound time signature you dont have a triplet grouping, though I've seen a couple of people try too.
We're actually in agreement, but this point needs further elaboration.

You can play a triplet with the 3 at the top of the beam and everything in compound time. I don't know how I can better explain this without a picture of a a tab or sheet music. I'll see if I can get some pictures posted later, but the general idea is that you're still playing 3 notes in the time of 2.
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
We're actually in agreement, but this point needs further elaboration.

You can play a triplet with the 3 at the top of the beam and everything in compound time. I don't know how I can better explain this without a picture of a a tab or sheet music. I'll see if I can get some pictures posted later, but the general idea is that you're still playing 3 notes in the time of 2.


You mean that for instance in 9/8, you have in a beat this:

triplets(8th-8th-8th)+8th?


Sounds logical, as triplets are just ternal divisions of a figure...
#24
wheres the mystery?

15/8

its.....15........8th notes.........

simple as

look at it how you will, 1 bar of 4/4 an one bar of 7/8

maybe even 3 bars of 5/8

a time signature is a written thing, so 15/8 doesnt tell us much unless we know how the stems are grouped
#25
Quote by gonzaw
You mean that for instance in 9/8, you have in a beat this:

triplets(8th-8th-8th)+8th?
Yes.


Here's an example:

Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Nov 5, 2008,
#27
I understand, obviously you can have triplets in any time signature, hell, I even remember a peice in something horrid like 35/32 with a crotchet triplet at the start.

My point was Ive seen somone write in a bar of 6/8 for instance, two groups of three quavers with a triplet grouping over them and calling it a bar. Which, is obviously wrong.

I understand were in agreement.

"triplets(8th-8th-8th)+8th?"

or 8th + triplets (8th 8th 8th)

My point by this "I understand that in a compound time signature you dont have a triplet grouping, though I've seen a couple of people try too." was that you cant just have 6 quavers in a 6/8 bar and put a triplet over them and call it a bar, which I've seen somone do.

If you wanted nothing but quaver triplets in a 6/8 bar, how would you notate it.

It can be gruped as triplets because than your time signature becomes 3/4 w/ triplet, not 6/8, because their not grouped as 6/8 w/ triplets.

Would you just use, goddamn shame I dont have a way of notation here.

Quaver & Semi-Quaver in a 16th note triplet

Semi-Quaver & Quaver in a 16th note triplet.

The two semi-quavers being tied together.

Than:

Quaver & Semi-Quaver in a 16th note triplet

Than for your first dotted crotchet beat in 6/8

Than for the second dotted crotchet beat.

Semi-Quaver (which is tied to the last semi-quaver) & Quaver Inside a 16th note triplet

Quaver & Semi-Quaver Inside a 16th note triplet Inside a 16th note triplet

Semi-Quaver (tied to the last) Quaver Inside a 16th note triplet

That being the grouping for 9 notes in a 6/8 bar GROUPED as 6/8, not just grouped as 3/4 with 3 8th note triplets.

Right?
Last edited by Galvanise69 at Nov 5, 2008,
#28
let me re-iterate my point

how can they be triplets?

they may be stemed in groups of 3, but if you wanted triplets it would be written in 5/4 with 5 triplets

then the bar would have 5 beats, an it would have a definite triplet feel

ask yourself this, when playing in 15/8, where are the beats? where are you tapping your foot, unless its at like 400 bpm im assuming its not just on the 1st 8th note, an likewise im assuming its also not on every single 8th note

so, the pulse is every 3 notes then cool, you got triplets...its basicly a proggy 12/8

but to me if your gona use something like 15/8 then its for that disjuct feel, i mean 15/8 is closer to 2 bars of 4/4 than one bar of 12/8

so youl end up with a COOL pulse

1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4,1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4

count it, it sounds great and follows your 15/8 pulse

now compare to

1+a2+a3+a4+a5+a,1+a2+a3+a4+a5+a

that just sounds endless, repetative, but in the 1st count youl notice there is no + after the 2nd 4. beautiful
#29
Quote by jackblsdaniels
let me re-iterate my point

how can they be triplets?

they may be stemed in groups of 3, but if you wanted triplets it would be written in 5/4 with 5 triplets

then the bar would have 5 beats, an it would have a definite triplet feel

ask yourself this, when playing in 15/8, where are the beats? where are you tapping your foot, unless its at like 400 bpm im assuming its not just on the 1st 8th note, an likewise im assuming its also not on every single 8th note

so, the pulse is every 3 notes then cool, you got triplets...its basicly a proggy 12/8

but to me if your gona use something like 15/8 then its for that disjuct feel, i mean 15/8 is closer to 2 bars of 4/4 than one bar of 12/8

so youl end up with a COOL pulse

1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4,1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4

count it, it sounds great and follows your 15/8 pulse

now compare to

1+a2+a3+a4+a5+a,1+a2+a3+a4+a5+a

that just sounds endless, repetative, but in the 1st count youl notice there is no + after the 2nd 4. beautiful


We are not arguing that the three notes per beat are "triplets", because they obviously aren't, since they are not the division of any figure, only a dotted one (I don't know the term)

We are arguing that you can use triplets in 15/8, 6/4, 9/8 or any compound metre, since triplets are the ternal subdivision of a figure, which since in these cases it isn't the unit of beat, they don't superpose with the aforementioned subdivision of the beat (the three notes you see in every beat).
#30
Obviously 15/8 can be divided any number of ways, as a compound time signature, as 3x 5/8

As a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 7/8

As a bar of 7/8 and 4/4

etc.

I think the imortant thing here is that 15/8 without any clarification as to how it is sub-divided is a compound time signature, Quintuple Compound.

Because it consists of 5 dotted crotchets.

But also it can be sub-divided any number of ways.
#31
Quote by Galvanise69


I think the imortant thing here is that 15/8 without any clarification as to how it is sub-divided is a compound time signature, Quintuple Compound.


I (respectfully) don't agree... you can't assume that's how it's subdivided

if it's one of those 'it's generally agreed that's what it is' type things, then ok... but there's no reason a bottom number of 8 confers some special compound grouping to a bar... would you automatically assume compound groupings for time signatures of 15/4? or 15/16 ? I wouldn't... (15/16's more likely to be a Megadeth-esque 'curtailed bar of 4/4')
out of here
#32
my advice ! :

understand pulse :
common time :
2/4 3/4 4/4 = pulse is crochets
compound time :
6/8 9/8 12/8 = pulse is dotted quavers .
asymetrical time =
such as 15/8
pulse is a mixture of the above ,
in a score you should be able to find this by the way notes are grouped together , not always the case in (ahem rockschool grade 8 ! )
15/8 could have the pulse of a bar of 3/4 (6 quavers ) followed by a bar of 9/8 (three dotted quavers )
or one of many sub-divisions , but remember (at least in my opinion ) those subdivisons will be in either coumpound or simple time .
#33
15/8 as stated previously is simply: 15 8th notes per measure

Compound meters (divisible by 3 like 3/4, 6/4, 9/4, 3/8, and so on) group the notes in beams of 3 (3 8th notes beamed together for example, or 6 16th notes) but that does not make them triplets. The reason they are beamed in groups of 3 is to make it easier to keep time and count the notes.

15/8 would have 3 8th notes beamed 5 times, for a total of 15. Or you could use smaller notes that equaled 3 8th notes (2 8th notes beamed with 2 16th notes, 1 8th note beamed with 4 16th notes, 1 8th note beamed with 2 16th notes and 4 32nd notes etc...)

Here is how triplets work: the note value of a triplet is equal to one note higher than the triplet notes. This means:
a group of quarter note triplets = one half note
a group of eighth note triplets = one quarter note
a group of sixteenth not triplets = one eighth note

and so on...

One could argue that 15/8 is the same as 30/16. They both have the same number of notes in them, and would sound exactly the same, its just the difference in how they are written.
15/8 centers around 8th notes
30/16 would center timing around 16th notes instead

they would be look different when written but they both sound the same.
It also affects how they are conducted. When keeping tempo for each of those you would count like this:
15/8: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 and so on up to 15
whereas
30/16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 and so on all the way up to 30
The & in between numbers on 15/8 counts for the 16th notes, while in 30/16 every number counts for the 16th notes.
And it's a lot harder to keep count up to 30 for each measure. :P
#34
Quote by inflatablefilth
I (respectfully) don't agree... you can't assume that's how it's subdivided

if it's one of those 'it's generally agreed that's what it is' type things, then ok... but there's no reason a bottom number of 8 confers some special compound grouping to a bar... would you automatically assume compound groupings for time signatures of 15/4? or 15/16 ? I wouldn't... (15/16's more likely to be a Megadeth-esque 'curtailed bar of 4/4')


No, you cant assume that is how it is sub-divided.

But, in asking what type of time signature 15/8 is, I would respond Quintuple Compound.

Its like being asked what type of time signature 4/4 is, Quadruple Simple.

But of course its often sub-divided as SwwMwwMw (in Quavers)

'curtailed bar of 4/4'

What did you mean, just 3/4 w/ three 16th notes at the end.
#35
30/16 is different from 15/8 because the groupings will be different. 30/16 will be beamed in groups of 16th notes , while 15/8 will be grouped in 8th notes.

Bangagong: I only have one issue with something you said. Your stating that 3/4 and 3/8 are compound meters. The way I have been taught, you cant have meters with one beat, as you have done with 3/4 and 3/8, these are not classified as compound, because there is only one beat. Rather they are classified as simple time signatures, triple simple to be exact, because they have 3 un-dotted beats.
#36
Quote by Galvanise69
Bangagong: I only have one issue with something you said. Your stating that 3/4 and 3/8 are compound meters. The way I have been taught, you cant have meters with one beat, as you have done with 3/4 and 3/8, these are not classified as compound, because there is only one beat. Rather they are classified as simple time signatures, triple simple to be exact, because they have 3 un-dotted beats.


Thank you for the correction. 3/4 and 3/8 are not compound meters, they are simple meters.

basically, Simple meters divide the beat into two, while compound meters divide it into three. Since 3/4 and 3/8 only have 3 beats per measure, notes are beamed in groups of 2 (like 3 groups of beamed 8th notes for 3/4 etc).
#37
Another definition of compound and simple meters is that the beat value on a compound meter is dotted, the beat value on a simple meter is un-dotted.

Anyhow where in agreement.
#38
Quote by Galvanise69
Another definition of compound and simple meters is that the beat value on a compound meter is dotted, the beat value on a simple meter is un-dotted.


Those both mean the same thing. A quarter note can be broken down into two eighth notes, whereas a dotted quarter note can be broken down into three.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#39
Yes, obviously.

I just wasnt to sure if by saying this "Simple meters divide the beat into two, while compound meters divide it into three. Since 3/4 and 3/8 only have 3 beats per measure, notes are beamed in groups of 2 (like 3 groups of beamed 8th notes for 3/4 etc)."

It could be misunderstood as 4/4 w/ Quaver Triplets is a compound time signature, because it devides the beat into three.

Which, as we have already discussed is obviously wrong.

Bangagong : Im aware thats not what you meant, but I was just seeing how else it could be misunderstood.