#1
I don't know if this is allowed but post was too long and needed a 2nd post.so pls lock. Newer version is a bit on top.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 11, 2008,
#3
This is a nice way of expressing scale examples that people who aren't theory minded but try to learn theory anyways (me) can learn from clearly. Makes sense of the numbers on the paper.

Thanks.
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#4
added to the stuff in mixolydian, loads of folk tunes, like Nick Drake stuff, are in mixolydian. it is a good key to get an easy folky sound
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#5
Quote by BobChicken
added to the stuff in mixolydian, loads of folk tunes, like Nick Drake stuff, are in mixolydian. it is a good key to get an easy folky sound


List artist + song name. I need more examples in different genres

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#6
very good, should be stickied
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#7
Ionian - Wes Montgomery, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Chick Corea, McCoy Tyner
Dorian (#4, b2)- McCoy Tyner, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane
Phrygian - Wes Montgomery
Lydian (#5, b7, #2)- Miles Davis, Charlie Parker
Mixolydian - Miles Davis, John Coltrane
Aeolian - Wes Montgomery, John Coltrane
Locrian - Wes Montgomery, Chick Corea
Altered Scale - McCoy Tyner
Bebop (Major, Minor, Dominant, Dorian) - Charlie Parker. Miles Davis, John Coltrane
Whole Tone - Chick Corea
Superlocrian - Miles Davis, Chick Corea, John Coltrane

Pick up any one of any of these guys' albums and you'll hear every mode you'd ever want to.
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#8
Quote by musicology
Ionian - Wes Montgomery, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Chick Corea, McCoy Tyner
Dorian (#4, b2)- McCoy Tyner, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane
Phrygian - Wes Montgomery
Lydian (#5, b7, #2)- Miles Davis, Charlie Parker
Mixolydian - Miles Davis, John Coltrane
Aeolian - Wes Montgomery, John Coltrane
Locrian - Wes Montgomery, Chick Corea
Altered Scale - McCoy Tyner
Bebop (Major, Minor, Dominant, Dorian) - Charlie Parker. Miles Davis, John Coltrane
Whole Tone - Chick Corea
Superlocrian - Miles Davis, Chick Corea, John Coltrane

Pick up any one of any of these guys' albums and you'll hear every mode you'd ever want to.


This is good, I'm particulary interested in a good example of locrian(song name and/or passage) since that 1 lacks heavily

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#9
Quote by musicology
Ionian - Wes Montgomery, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Chick Corea, McCoy Tyner
Dorian (#4, b2)- McCoy Tyner, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane
Phrygian - Wes Montgomery
Lydian (#5, b7, #2)- Miles Davis, Charlie Parker
Mixolydian - Miles Davis, John Coltrane
Aeolian - Wes Montgomery, John Coltrane
Locrian - Wes Montgomery, Chick Corea
Altered Scale - McCoy Tyner
Bebop (Major, Minor, Dominant, Dorian) - Charlie Parker. Miles Davis, John Coltrane
Whole Tone - Chick Corea
Superlocrian - Miles Davis, Chick Corea, John Coltrane

Pick up any one of any of these guys' albums and you'll hear every mode you'd ever want to.

But you didn't list what mode goes with what aspect of the song, or even what song they apply to. That's what was so helpful about the original posting - it listed the songs and their parts which best exemplified the specific mode, which gives a great reference to the sound and functionality of it.
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#10
Quote by strat0blaster
But you didn't list what mode goes with what aspect of the song, or even what song they apply to. That's what was so helpful about the original posting - it listed the songs and their parts which best exemplified the specific mode, which gives a great reference to the sound and functionality of it.


I agree, in Jazz their are often mode switching 1 lick after another, not to mention the chromatic notes added which will completely dazzle the "beginners ear" I will list some "unique/"not so popular" scales with jazz examples tomorrow.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 10, 2008,
#11
The modes are everywhere. You just follow the chord progression and listen to the solos to hear the modes. Here's an example of Dizzy Gillespie doing "A Night in Tunisia"
Intro Bass lick
Melody
Dizzy's Solo: bar 1v- Eb Mixolydian, bar 2 - D aeolian (repeats 2 more times), bar 7 - E locrian to A altered, bar 8 - D dorian.
(Whole section repeats)
Bar 17 - a locrian, bar 18 - D altered, bar 19 and 20 - G bebop minor, bar 21 - G locrian, Bar 22 - C altered, Bar 23 - F Ionian, Bar 24 - E locrian to A altered
(Section 1 repeats)
Bar 33 and 34- E bebop minor, bar 35 and 36 - Eb Mixoldyian #4, bar 37 and 38 - D dorian, bar 39 and 40 - G bebop dominant, bar 41 C bebop dominant, bar 42 - G aeolian, bar 43 and 44 - F# altered.
That's a typical example of a great jazz tune with some really cool changes and Dizzy doing some amazing modal work over it. In my opinion Miles' Lydian work is better, and McCoy Tyner does some awesome work with mixolydian mode. Chick Corea is all over the place, and you can catch some good locrian stuff in his playing. It's all about the music though. Jazz is all about the music and knowing what to play when, so a study of jazz will get you deep into the modes and the unlimited potential they allow.
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#12
Quote by musicology
The modes are everywhere. You just follow the chord progression and listen to the solos to hear the modes. Here's an example of Dizzy Gillespie doing "A Night in Tunisia"
Intro Bass lick
Melody
Dizzy's Solo: bar 1v- Eb Mixolydian, bar 2 - D aeolian (repeats 2 more times), bar 7 - E locrian to A altered, bar 8 - D dorian.
(Whole section repeats)
Bar 17 - a locrian, bar 18 - D altered, bar 19 and 20 - G bebop minor, bar 21 - G locrian, Bar 22 - C altered, Bar 23 - F Ionian, Bar 24 - E locrian to A altered
(Section 1 repeats)
Bar 33 and 34- E bebop minor, bar 35 and 36 - Eb Mixoldyian #4, bar 37 and 38 - D dorian, bar 39 and 40 - G bebop dominant, bar 41 C bebop dominant, bar 42 - G aeolian, bar 43 and 44 - F# altered.
That's a typical example of a great jazz tune with some really cool changes and Dizzy doing some amazing modal work over it. In my opinion Miles' Lydian work is better, and McCoy Tyner does some awesome work with mixolydian mode. Chick Corea is all over the place, and you can catch some good locrian stuff in his playing. It's all about the music though. Jazz is all about the music and knowing what to play when, so a study of jazz will get you deep into the modes and the unlimited potential they allow.


True, but this is for the beggining guitarist/musician. I will make a list of jazz tunes tomorrow. Your post is great though I will definately add it with cred to you

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#13
Make sure you throw Wayne Shorter and Duke Ellington on the list too. Great stuff and keep up the good work.
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#14
Mixolydian - Dazed and Confused - Led Zeppelin (E Mixolydian)
Mixolydian - Before You Accuse Me - Eric Clapton (E Mixolydian)

If I think of any more I'll let you know.
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#16
Quote by 20Tigers
Mixolydian - Dazed and Confused - Led Zeppelin (E Mixolydian)
Mixolydian - Before You Accuse Me - Eric Clapton (E Mixolydian)

If I think of any more I'll let you know.


They are mixo, but Imo they are so drowned in blues that they don't reflect mixolydian as strong as the other examples.

I hear em as Blues with a mixolydian touch. I'm looking for melodies and songs which heavy accentuate the mode instead of using the mode as a "added ingredient"

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#17
I don't like the idea of assigning moods and feelings to modes, especially in a thread aimed at beginners. The mode is next to irrelevant in the overall sound of the music, and I'd be hard pressed to think of a single modal piece consistent with the characteristics described in the first post. I'd also keep in mind that major and minor are not the same an ionian and aeolian, the latter two implying modal music and non-functional harmony.
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Last edited by Archeo Avis at Nov 10, 2008,
#18
Quote by xxdarrenxx
They are mixo, but Imo they are so drowned in blues that they don't reflect mixolydian as strong as the other examples.

I hear em as Blues with a mixolydian touch. I'm looking for melodies and songs which heavy accentuate the mode instead of using the mode as a "added ingredient"

Sweet as, it's your thread. But in fairness you did say you wanted different genres. Perhaps you should have said "different genres - except blues cause that all sounds the same to me"??

I think the Beatles' main riff from "I Feel Fine" and "Birthday" are Mixo. As is the main riff from Roy Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman".
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 10, 2008,
#19
Quote by 20Tigers
Sweet as, it's your thread. But in fairness you did say you wanted different genres. Perhaps you should have said "different genres - except blues cause that all sounds the same to me"??

I think the Beatles' main riff from "I Feel Fine" and "Birthday" are Mixo. As is the main riff from Roy Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman".


YE soz Because the blues sound is so distinctive it pretty much overtakes all other flavours. That's why alot of people use Dorian mixed with blues, since to the ears these can be very well separated when used together without losing (much) of the modal qualities.

I definately Agree on Roy Orbison, that's going on the list

The Pink floyd song has a bit more of a Phrygian/Eastern flavour though.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 10, 2008,
#20
Awesome post and even awesomer responses.

But most people know this stuff already and fail not at knowing which mode for which sound, but on how to use a mode. Sorry for being a negative arsehole, but it's true. Otherwise it's one of the best modes posts I've ever seen.

WARNING ADVANCED-ish THEORY AHEAD.

On writting with modes:

Modal progressions
------------------------------
What most musicians mean by modes is 'modal progressions', where the progression will specifically point to a specific mode. This is achieved by outlining that specific mode (usually dorian as it's the easiest).

But how do you outline a mode?
Each mode has a special note that only that mode has, in dorian it is its natural sixth, aeolian is an exception to this. BTW you should know the formula's of the modes before using them, not just their fingerings. Alot of guys call this special note the modal note.

So all we do is find chord that contain this special note. In D dorian these chords are G7, Bm7b5 and Em. But, we cant just throw these chords together, we have to make sure we dont resolve to the I chord of the parent scale, or else all modal feeling will be lost. So that means we cant use Bm7b5, as it only really moves to C well. I personally wouldnt use Em, as it doesnt really move well (in my opinion) to either Dm or G7. So this leaves us with G7, which still contains the modal note and still moves well to Dm.

So our progression is: Dm7 - G7.


Modal interchange in improvisation
------------------------------
The other way I'm fairly proficient at is what corwinoid calls "modal interchange." It's basically a way jazzers play the "chord changes." After bop died down, alot of jazzers realised that each different chord would make the same note sound completely different. So many of them tried to improvise with different scales and modes over different chords. This way of thinking is for the improviser (whilst modal progressions is for the arranger)

Say you look at this common progression: Cmajor7 - Fmajor7 - G7. Most rock musicians will look at that and would improvise with a C major pentatonic over the whole thing, which is fine but is fairly limited. But a jazzer would look at that and try to tailor what they play over each chord to reflect what they want it to sound like.

So they might play either C lydian or C ionian over the first chord. As maj7 chords usually call for either lydian or ionian.
Dominant chords normally only have mixolydian played over them, sometimes a lydian dominant mode (which is the same as the lydian mode except with a b7) or possibly an altered scale (which is best over a non-functioning dominant chord).
And over that F major7 either F ionian or F lydian can be played over it.

You can look at modal interchange as if its a scale change. You can look at it like it's either C major (C ionian) or G major (C lydian) over the first chord. And C major (F lydian) or F major (F ionian) over the next chord. This approach is recommended by Jody Fisher, but is fairly confusing in my opinion.

It's important to remember, when thinking like this, that the chord underneath decides the mode, NOT what fingering you choose. If your chord is C, you must play a C mode or scale. Even if you play the fingering's of another mode with a different root note (but the same notes), over C major, the mode will still function as C ionian (or C major). This is what confuses alot of people.

As a rule of thumb: Ionian or lydian over Maj7 chords, Mixolydian* over dominant chords, and Aeolian or Dorian or Phrygian (sort of rare) over minor chords.

OTHER THINGS TO PLAY OVER DOMINANT CHORDS
*lydian dominant (fourth mode of the melodic minor scale), Superlocrian (seventh mode of melodic minor scale) and Phrygian Dominant (fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale) also work in special occasions.

Lydian dominant is just your usual lydian mode, except with a flat seventh. This is prefered by some musicians as they believe it's more consonant. They get this belief from the fact that the two tritones made by this mode makes a third with the seventh (which is essential for that dominant feel) and the #4, which is actually a good tritone as it moves well to the perfect fifth. Whether it is or isn't a good choice is up to you.

Phrygian dominant only works over a functioning dominant chord in a minor progression. This is sort of more common in carribean style jazz (you know, the kind with calypso style rhthyms). Phrygian dominant sort of sounds eastern, sort of spicy and sort of dark. This is due to minor sixth (spicy-ness) and the minor second (darkness).

Mixolydian flat sixth works in the same situation as a Phrygian dominant, but some people prefer it as this mode does not contain the dissonant b2. Once again, completely your choice.

Superlocrian sort of works too. As that b4 of the superlocrian mode is enharmonic with the M3 of the dominant chord. This mode can give a dominant chord (which is naturally bright) a darker, more bluesier feel. The augmented seconds (enharmonic to minor thirds) over dominant chords generally sounds very bluesy and so does the flat fifth. I'd recomend you avoided the minor second (too dark) and used a perfect fifth (even if the mode's formula doesnt include it). This mode works best over non-functioning dominant chords and altered dominant chords (x7b9, x7#9 and so on).

IMPORTANT: AS IN READ THIS
Dont attempt trying this until your fairly good at improvising over chords. Otherwise your phrasing will go out the window and most musicians will agree that phrasing and rhthym are the most important elements of improvising. Before you try all these tricky things with modes (but after your phrasing has developed ofcourse) try some simple pentatonic changes. Play Minor pentatonics over minor chords and major pentatonics over major chords, just to get the hang of playing the changes.

As a general guide:
Major7 chords: Ionian, Lydian, Lydian #2 (?)

Minor chords: Dorian, aeolian, phrygian (use Xmb9s), Dorian #4 (darker/bluesier, use Xmadd#11), Dorian b9 (use Xm7b9)

Dominant chords: Mixolydian (recommended, Altered dominant (AKA superlocrian), Lydian dominant, Phrygian dominant, Mixolydian flat sixth (see the paragraph on these 2),

Half diminished chords: Locrian, Aeolian b5, locrian natural sixth (?)

Full diminished chords: Ultralocrian, Locrian natural sixth

Augmented chords: Whole tone scale (?), Lydian augmented, Ionian Augmented.

Keep in mind these modes are either from the major, melodic minor or harmonic minor scales.

ANY SUGGESTIONS, RIDICULES, CRITISISMS, URGINGS TO DELETE THIS POST ARE WELCOME. And I will delete this post if enough people tell me it's not doing much and is just confusing
Last edited by demonofthenight at Nov 11, 2008,
#21
^
I didn't quote post due to size lol, but I understand what u mean. But I didn't knew how to play modes well, untill I really started listening to songs as this.

My old guitar teacher had a saying. He said to me, You must stop hearing and start listening.


I was struck and thought he smoked too much pot. I thought they were the same words. Hearing is watching the news or listening the radio at the supermarket. Listening is knowing the notes and can hum along everysingle on.


This may seem hard, but it can be done. I will add something to my initial post.

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#22
Quote by xxdarrenxx
^
I didn't quote post due to size lol, but I understand what u mean. But I didn't knew how to play modes well, untill I really started listening to songs as this.

My old guitar teacher had a saying. He said to me, You must stop hearing and start listening.


I was struck and thought he smoked too much pot. I thought they were the same words. Hearing is watching the news or listening the radio at the supermarket. Listening is knowing the notes and can hum along everysingle on.


This may seem hard, but it can be done. I will add something to my initial post.
Seeing as this awesome thread is yours, you get the biggest say on my post.

Do you want it deleted or can we keep it? Do you like it (please honest opinion)? It's all original stuff and most guys tell me I'm a crappy teacher (probably due to my occasional manic episodes).
#23
Quote by demonofthenight
Seeing as this awesome thread is yours, you get the biggest say on my post.

Do you want it deleted or can we keep it? Do you like it (please honest opinion)? It's all original stuff and most guys tell me I'm a crappy teacher (probably due to my occasional manic episodes).


Yes After my coffee I'm gonna take the part of the " flavoured mode note" + chords and make a list of that.

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#24
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Yes After my coffee I'm gonna take the part of the " flavoured mode note" + chords and make a list of that.

Want me to add to my list so your list is more complete? Theres a couple of harmonic minor modes and melodic minor modes that occasionally show their use that I could add.

You are my new favourite UG'er.

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/offtopic

EDIT: About your edit and melodies being hummable. May I humbly disagree with the master? The thing I like about instrumental melodies is that they're mostly unhummable because of their complexity, technicallity, originality (to vocal lines), eccentricity and general awesomeness.

There are actually books written on making melodies hummable/singable with a million rules. Except jazz has shown you can still write an awesome melody that's completely unsingable (although, everything seems to be singable by Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holiday) and chaotic. Classical instrumental melodies are generally hummable though.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Nov 11, 2008,
#25
Quote by demonofthenight

Want me to add to my list so your list is more complete? Theres a couple of harmonic minor modes and melodic minor modes that occasionally show their use that I could add.

You are my new favourite UG'er.

Coffee is so awesome. A couple of hours ago I had the second most amount of caffiene I've ever had. I was buzzed and euphoric for about 2 hours, than I was slighly dizzy (but still euphoric and buzzed). Most people fail to realise, caffiene is a(n increadibly awesome) psychoactive drug just like meth, but no where near as addictive or as dangerous on the short term and long term.
/offtopic

EDIT: About your edit and melodies being hummable. May I humbly disagree with the master? The thing I like about instrumental melodies is that they're mostly unhummable because of their complexity, technicallity, originality (to vocal lines), eccentricity and general awesomeness.

There are actually books written on making melodies hummable/singable with a million rules. Except jazz has shown you can still write an awesome melody that's completely unsingable (although, everything seems to be singable by Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holiday) and chaotic. Classical instrumental melodies are generally hummable though.


True this, ur right about the humming, I will edit that part.

About the list, If u make It More complete that would be wonderfull.

Edit it in ur original post and pm me a message when ur done so I can add.

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#26
Done

Made it easier to read (sort of), condensed the bracketed information as much as possible and added a few rare-ish minor modes and some situations where you would use them.
#27
Quote by demonofthenight
Done

Made it easier to read (sort of), condensed the bracketed information as much as possible and added a few rare-ish minor modes and some situations where you would use them.



I do need examples of passage or songs or progressions on ur things, cause this is the main feature of the original post.

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#28
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I do need examples of passage or songs or progressions on ur things, cause this is the main feature of the original post.
Ahh thats going to be a problem. The only reason I know about these conventions is because jazz guys I like talk about doing this kind of stuff. In a 10 minute freely improvised song, a jazz guy will do a couple of these conventions over each different chord. Maybe someother budding UG'er can come on and talk about some example? 'Cause I'm stumped.
#29
Quote by demonofthenight
Ahh thats going to be a problem. The only reason I know about these conventions is because jazz guys I like talk about doing this kind of stuff. In a 10 minute freely improvised song, a jazz guy will do a couple of these conventions over each different chord. Maybe someother budding UG'er can come on and talk about some example? 'Cause I'm stumped.


Ah That's fine by me.

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