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#1
I went to a guitar store with my gf, and she wants to buy me a guitar or amp for christmas/my birthday. I tried out the peavey windsor half stack and I liked it. I know that it has bad cleans but i have another amp that does that well. I've heard the cab sucks, so what would be a good substiture for it for a low or similar price? I've heard something with greenbacks but that would cost a lot(at least i think it would). What would be some good cabs that would compliment the head?
#3
Just about any 4x12 with Celestion Vintage 30s.
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#4
i'm also seriously considering the Windsor. A lot of people seem to suggest any cab with Greenbacks to get really close to jcm800 territory.
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#5
people traditionally used marshall 1960 cabs with 75 watt Celestions. Not greenbacks.
#6
Dean Icon PZ
Line 6 Variax 700
Dean V-Wing
Dean ML 79 SilverBurst
MXR M 108
H2O Chorus/Echo
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#7
^I don't really see how Ear Candy cabs fall into the same price range as Windsor stuff...plus they don't make a 412.

Avatar FTW.
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#8
My windsor sounds alot better through 2x10's then it does 4x12's. Don't limit yourself. try as many as you can.
Dean Icon PZ
Line 6 Variax 700
Dean V-Wing
Dean ML 79 SilverBurst
MXR M 108
H2O Chorus/Echo
Valve Junior (V3 Head/Cab and Combo)
VHT Special 6
Phonic 620 Power Pod PA
Wampler Super Plextortion
Line 6 Pod HD
#9
Are the windsor cabs really that bad? since i am on a budget would it be a good idea just to pick one up if i could get it for $150? or would i still be better off spending 500? Im using a lline 6 spider and a peavey classic but the pc wont go loud enough so im stuck using the spider.
#11
Quote by guns_rosesldb
Are the windsor cabs really that bad? since i am on a budget would it be a good idea just to pick one up if i could get it for $150? or would i still be better off spending 500? Im using a lline 6 spider and a peavey classic but the pc wont go loud enough so im stuck using the spider.

500?

You can get a great 2x12" from avatar for 350. Sounds great, much easier to transport.
#12
avatar and veretone both make good custom cabs for pretty cheap
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Quote by Dempsey68
get a cheap marshall... my MG15DFX has a button that simulates the sound of one of the expensive tube marshall amps.
#13
the cheapest you'll probably find a decent 4x12 is $350-$400 for used Marshall 1960 cabs, possible cheaper than that if you can find used Avatars which are also pretty good.
#14
You could always go with a nicer 2x12 for now, and if you decide later that you really need a 4x12, you can just buy another 2x12 and stack them. Less initial investment for better quality, more portable and you get to audition the first two speakers before buying more.
#15
I have the halfstack. The cab isn't absolutely terrible by any means, but the amp sounds much better through my friend's 1960A cab. I would suggest going used or buying an avatar.
#16
Quote by Stickymongoose
You could always go with a nicer 2x12 for now, and if you decide later that you really need a 4x12, you can just buy another 2x12 and stack them. Less initial investment for better quality, more portable and you get to audition the first two speakers before buying more.


two 2x12s does not sound like a 4x12.

people in this thread are completely underrating the importance of the cabinet itself.
Last edited by al112987 at Nov 13, 2008,
#17
Well, actually, two 2x12 cabinets with the same speakers as a similarly designed 4x12 will sound exactly the same. Unless you're comparing a much smaller 2x12, or an open backed 2x12 to a closed 4x12, they're going to be exactly the same thing, except that you can separate and carry/use them individually.
#18
No. They will not sound the same.

I don't know where you get that from, but they will not sound the same, the cabinet itself, the box I mean, and how it is tuned, is very important to how everything sounds. The sound projection from two 2x12s is completely different from a 4x12.

It's exactly why a Mesa 4x12, Bogner 4x12, Marshall 4x12 all sound distinctly different even if they all use the same speakers.

If you want the sound of a 4x12, you just need to get a 4x12. An oversized 2x12 (like a mojotone diagonal box) will get you closer to the sound of a 4x12 than 2 normal sized 2x12s.
Last edited by al112987 at Nov 13, 2008,
#19
I understand full well that different manufacturers can make boxes that have different acoustic properties from one another, but saying that you can't get the same sounds from separate cabs just doesn't make sense. Several 4x12s even have divisions between each speaker, essentially creating four completely separate 1x12 cabinets in one piece. What should this tell you? There's absolutely no acoustic benefit, if you have 4 12" speakers on a stage, in putting them all into the same enclosure. You CAN get 4x12 sounds out of a pair of 2x12s, just as easily, as long as they've been sized appropriately. And at his pricerange, he's going to have an easier time finding a properly engineered 2x12 cabinet (enough airspace) than a 4x12.
#20
Quote by Stickymongoose
Several 4x12s even have divisions between each speaker, essentially creating four completely separate 1x12 cabinets in one piece.

..Who? I'd like to see that.

Being an owner of a compact car, I'm a bigger fan of convenience over low end benefits, so I'm for a 2x12", but i'm with al on this one. A pair of 2x12" does not sound like a 4x12". With walls in between like in your proposed 4x12" design, sound waves can't travel far enough to develop a fatter bass response. It's science. the sounds waves won't have enough room in a 2x12" to sound exactly like a 4x12".
#21
Saying that it offers no acoustic benefit is subjective, if there is a 4x12 that does have barriers (I have yet to see one), it would very certainly sound quite different from a normal 4x12. I don't see how this is even arguable.
#22
As long as you have the same amount of airspace for each speaker, the same materials and there's no problem with standing waves, there should be no audible difference no matter how you divide or separate your speakers. Two speakers in one sealed enclosure share the same airspace. You can't build one 4 cubic ft. box for multiple individual speakers that need around 4 cubic ft. of airspace each and expect it to be ideal. In that case, 4 speakers would act as if each was in a 1 cubic ft. enclosure. And this stuff I'm hearing about longer wavelength travel can't be too important. I haven't seen many 4x12 cabinets that were as deep as they were tall/wide. Airspace is really all that matters as long as you have your dimensions worked out to eliminate standing waves. Which means there is no conceivable benefit to having more speakers per chamber, or a taller chamber as long as airspace stays constant.
#23
But the airspace per speaker is not the same in two 2x12 as a 4x12. For each speaker in a 4x12 cabinet the airspace in a 4x12 is the entire 4x12 enclosure.

Its not a matter of number of speakers in an enclosure, its a matter of the enclosure itself. The biggest impact on sound projection is the dimensions of the cabinet itself.
Last edited by al112987 at Nov 13, 2008,
#25
But I think you're misunderstanding the way the airspace is shared. That's why I said you CAN'T put more than one speaker in a box that only has enough airspace for one of that particular speaker. Again, 4 speakers in a 4 cubic foot box means that each speaker gets 1 cubic foot of space. That's because all 4 speakers are moving in phase with each other. 4 speaker cones move out from the box, 4 times as much space is added without introducing any new air.
#26
Why don't you show me where you've seen this? I asked for it earlier, you failed to produce any results.

BTW, you're assuming that soundwaves are only going to travel in the specific area around them. They're going to travel in the whole cabinet's space. Adding walls in between changes that. Same amount of space does not equal the same enclosure. Again, you're oversimplifying it.
#27
It's a matter of air pressure, not sound waves. When you put more speakers into a sealed box, you need more volume, or the available airspace for those speakers will be divided. If you have 4 speakers mounted into one sealed chamber, all playing the same thing, each of those speakers only has access to a quarter of the airspace. I've been trying to explain this to you for a while, now. One speaker cone moving out of a sealed box a certain distance means X drop in air pressure, means X amount of resistance on the back of the cone. Four speakers moving in phase means you have 4X drop in pressure, 4x as much resistance if volume remains constant.

Trust me, I've been doing car audio systems in Arkansas for years. Every day, I have teenagers coming in with a standard cab pickup, "I want 100 18" subs in mah truck!", and I tell them, there's no point without enough airspace. When you mount two speakers in a box, you double the airspace requirements. Mount 4 and quadruple it, otherwise there's no point because you're not getting as much out of each speaker.
#28
I had a 4x12 cab. Two speakers were broken. I rewired everything by hand with 10 gauge wire.

Not only was it twice as loud (lol yeah, 3db...) the sound was very different. Much more appealing.

*EDIT*

Also the above comment about 18" subs, makes me think you deal with bass systems more often. Porting in a bass system is FAR more necessary than in a guitar cabinet since bass frequencies operate quite a bit differently from the high frequencies that guitar cabinets/amps are accustomed to.
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#30
A good cabinet for metal/heavily distorted guitar is usually sealed for better bass response.

I guess I don't understand what you're saying. lol.

Scratch that. I read it but I don't see where you can get off saying 2 stacked 2x12's is equivalent to a 4x12.
Quote by sargasm
There are no genres in metal that end with "core."
#31
I'm saying that the only thing that matters, dimensions wise, when building a sealed box is the amount of airspace per speaker. Which means that you should be perfectly able to build two 2x12 boxes that sound identical to a 4x12 as long as they are made from the same material, and each 2x12 has half the airspace that the 4x12 does. The whole point of a sealed box is to isolate the sound waves coming from the back of your speaker cones. When you listen to a cabinet, you're not hearing the sound waves inside the box, at least not ideally. And as long as they don't cause any wave cancellation, a sealed box with a set volume will sound the same regardless of how tall, wide or deep it is. The added volume of a 4x12 really isn't beneficial unless it's more than twice as big as a 2x12, because as I explained earlier, more speaker cones = more cone excursion = more need for airspace.
#32
Which leads me to believe you work more with bass cabinets not with guitar cabinets. Porting (which allows for breathing to the back of the speaker cone) isn't necessary in a guitar cabinet. In a bit 8x10 bass cab however it'll have various holes in it to allow for air to move in and out.

Guitar cabinets work on a different level than what you're thinking.
Quote by sargasm
There are no genres in metal that end with "core."
#33
You're really starting to make me think you're not reading a word I'm saying. Like a dozen posts trying to explain this, and I haven't mentioned porting ONCE. Ported enclosures are an entirely different game altogether, and I'm not getting into that. I'm talking about SEALED guitar cabs, and airspace is still key there. Time for an example. Imagine a tube like a piece of pipe or a pringle can that you cut the bottom out of. Now take some plastic film and stretch it over each open end of the tube. Seal it so that no air gets in or out. Now, when you pull one film away from the tube, the volume of the tube increases, and pressure decreases. Without releasing that film, pull the other film away. Does pressure remain constant? No, it decreases again, by the same degree. Now imagine that you put a divider in the very middle of the tube, not thick enough to noticeably affect the volume. Does this change the pressure? Does it make either film harder to pull? In the same way, dividers in a speaker cabinet will not affect the amount of pressure on each speaker, because the total airspace was already being shared/divided between them.
#34
Ok. So cutting all the crap out. You said 2, 2x12 cabinets stacked sound the same as a 4x12 cabinet. No they don't. I haven't ever seen a cabinet where each speaker is given it's own little "box" through the use of internal dividers.

My own cabinet has a shelf which runs the width horizontally to hold the baffle in place, however, it falls short of even half the depth of the cabinet.

You really should try a 2x12 stack like you are talking about, next to a 4x12 cabinet. The difference is there.
Quote by sargasm
There are no genres in metal that end with "core."
#35
The difference is there because you're probably trying two different cabs out, or in that particular instance, the volume isn't the same. If you followed my examples, there's absolutely no reason at all that dividers affect the operation of the speaker cones. In fact, when it comes to car audio design, dividers are quite frequently used, because it results in a sturdier box, and it's safer if you blow one of your speakers. (please don't ask me to explain that, just more physics) The reason it's not common (not unheard of) in guitar cabs is that they already weigh a ton, and they're sturdy enough. Most guitarists don't want a cabinet that weighs 20% more if it isn't going to sound any different. But, if you could divide them, and carry them separately, why not?
#36
Sometimes science can't explain why things are different. Until you've tried it, you have no real pull in this discussion until you yourself have gone out and tried them on the exact same head.

*EDIT*

Before I forget, stop comparing car stereos to guitar/bass cabinets. Apples to oranges...
Quote by sargasm
There are no genres in metal that end with "core."
#37
i've never tried a stack that has consisted of 2 2x12 cabinets as opposed to the traditional singular 4x12. but i can only imagine it would sound different. why? because it simply IS different. would it be that noticeable? tough call.. something we'll have to see someday.

quick edit:

just like if you were to get a car sub cabinet that had 2x10 as opposed to 2 singular cabs consisting of a 10" sub. it'd be hard to hear the difference since its all sub frequencies.. but i'm sure there would be SOME difference.
Grammar and spelling omitted as an exercise for the reader.
Last edited by Kivarenn82 at Nov 14, 2008,
#38
Science can explain that the only perceived difference is either in your head, or like I said earlier, you've never tried two 2x12s of exactly half the volume and identical speakers, wood and construction next to a 4x12. Just like two different 4x12 manufacturers can use the same speakers and result in a different product, there are alot of variables here. But to say that 4x12s in general have a different sound than two 2x12s makes no sense scientifically.


edit: And as for comparing car audio to guitar cabs, it's the same field. It's the same science, the same rules, and the same formulas. The end goals may be different, but the basic principles as I'm trying to explain them are quite compatible.

Oh, and stop trying to compare some trial run in a guitar shop to years of experience designing and selling custom speaker enclosures.
Last edited by Stickymongoose at Nov 14, 2008,
#39
Never mind.

You're right, happy? lol...


*EDIT*

You look stupid comparing car speakers to guitar cabinets. Just so you know.
Quote by sargasm
There are no genres in metal that end with "core."
#40


this slant marshall 4x12 doesn't appear to be divided in any way.

which leads me to believe it'll sound far different than 2 2x12 cabinets that would be stacked on top of one another.
Grammar and spelling omitted as an exercise for the reader.
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