Quote by jerrykramskoy
I hear you, and absolutely agreeSean! What would be the top two things you'd rate as the bigget problems?

cheers, Jerry

Great question.

I see the entire thing as just bad. It's systemic. It would be hard to define one area, and say "Oh but this is okay".

It would be like entering an 82 year old grandma in a 3 mile run, next to a 25 year old daily runner.

Comparing the two, what part of grandma is inefficient? Pretty much all of her. Given enough time, if she doesn't die, sure she will pass the finish line! But its not like I'm going to improve her the the point where she's keeping pace with the 25 year old.

Musically let's pose a scenario, to answer your own question.

For the purposes of this hypothetical, let's come up with an outcome first:

The ability to correctly name the letters of any triad in 1 second.

What in your opinion, would need to be amended or improved in what I will term "the traditional way" that you or any one else knows or learned off of, to be able take a student and effect that exact outcome in 3 weeks with at least 95% success?


Quote by willT08
The visuals are the sound put through an oscilloscope. They relate visually

in this case it tells us how it sounds, i said that didn't I?

so like the low sounds bulge out and the clicky sounds make other patterns noisy and stuff. just on a simple level

I actually liked it. It would have made your topic about the click more interesting to me.

Good share.


No, but I have long held a bias as to how it has been traditionally taught. I do believe its made far more difficult than it ever has to be. I think a lot of it is what I conceptualize the "pride of Academia". The invention of scholastic terms, to build it to this level of overkill, and make it harder than it has to be.

Theory itself is not hard. The basic options everyone has right now as it stands, (and I am excluding my own approach from that comment), makes it hard.


Quote by Patsfan1281
So right now im studying how to build basic traids and chords and I understand how to turn the triad into minors, diminished, and augmentd. My problem I find is that on the sheet music im using to study has several of the minor triads without ant flats. For example, the aminor and dminor triads do not have a flatted 3rd. So am I missing something or are these the correct way to make these traids. If it is the correct way, how would you make a regular a and d triad then? Thanks!

I think you ask a good question, but I think two things would help you in understanding.

Make sure you understand intervals in more than just letter notes. A C is a minor 3rd from A and a C# is a major 3rd away. They share the same alphabetical letter in their name name: C. Learn your intervals as far as distance, and these distinctions will be easier to understand.

Also make sure you are strong on the letters in the chromatic scale, and know that there isnt anything between E and F but D and E you have D#/Eb. If you don't have these as solid in the pocket fundamentals, your understanding of these larger questions will be affected.

Good luck to you!


Quote by bryan.bailey.39
Would you mind giving me a quick intro to what inversions of a chord are. And perhaps what they would be for, say, G major.

You can do this easily.

Pick a chord. Say G.

Find the notes that make up the chord. G B D

Use a different note of the chord, other than the root as the lowest/bass note. and add the remaining notes. B D G So you have G/B. B is the lowest bass note.


Quote by CelestialGuitar
I compose professionally, and I can say, without a doubt, you need to be able to read music.

Yes, you can produce orchestral pieces in the same way a dubstep producer would make his music, and that will get you work when people want a piece of music on an mp3 file ready to go. However, barely any of the jobs I've had asked for that.

There have been many times where I've had to provide sheet music for a singer to hand to a pianist, or I've had to give sheet music to an orchestra using all three clefs while accommodating transposing instruments. With your lack of skill, you could not work with Classical musicians, and even Jazz musicians will be confused. Remember, composing is a hard business. If you can get results, but to get results you have to spend hours in a studio, spending your employer's money talking trained musicians through the music like they're five, then you're useless. I and many others can get the same, if not better results by sending over some PDF files via email to be put in front of musicians capable of reading it, so why employ someone who takes ten times longer to get it done?

As for bands, my band can still be incredibly tight after a month of no rehearsals because everything is notated and set in stone before we get together for a rehearsal. It really helps being able to communicate exactly what you want and is essential for someone wanting to be professional.

This is where knowing how to sight read and compose using notation would be important. Think of it this way. How versatile would you like to ultimately be as a musician? Answer that, and that will set your course.


I personally like a slight reverb tail to give it fullness without being boomy. The same with delay. A little adds a nice versatile nuance to your tone. I tend to be a straight throught he amp kind of player, and don't use nearly the effects like I once did. I also love the BBB Sonic Stomp, and use it for almost everything.


What do you get when you play New Age music backwards?
New Age music.

What does it say on a blues singer's tombstone?
"I didn't wake up this morning..."

What's the difference between a puppy and a singer-songwriter?
Eventually the puppy stops whining.

How many sound men does it take to change a light bulb?
"Hey man, I just do sound."

How many Deadheads does it take to change a lightbulb?
12,001. One to change it, 2,000 to record the event and take pictures of it, and 10,000 to follow it around until it burns out.

How many punk-rock musicians does it take to change a light bulb?
Two: One to screw in the bulb and the other to smash the old one on his forehead.

Know how to make a million dollars singing jazz?
Start with two million.


C, E-flat and G go into a bar. The bartender says, "Sorry, we don't serve minors," and E-flat leaves. C and G have an open fifth between them and after a few drinks, G is out flat. F comes in and tries to augment the situation, but is not sharp enough. D comes into the bar and heads straight for the bathroom saying, "Excuse me, I'll just be a second."

A comes into the bar, but the bartender is not convinced that this relative of C is not a minor and sends him out. Then the bartender notices a B-flat hiding at the end of the bar and shouts, "Get out now. You're the seventh minor I've found in this bar tonight."

Next night, E-flat, not easily deflated, comes into the bar in a 3-piece suit with nicely shined shoes. The bartender (who used to have a nice corporate job until his company downsized) says: "You're looking pretty sharp tonight. Come on in. This could be a major development." And in fact, E-flat takes off his suit and everything else and stands there au natural. Eventually, C, who had passed out under the bar the night before, begins to sober up and realizes in horror that he's under a rest.

So, C goes to trial, is convicted of contributing to the diminution of a minor and sentenced to 10 years of DS without Coda at an up scale correctional facility. The conviction is overturned on appeal, however, and C is found innocent of any wrongdoing, even accidental, and that all accusations to the contrary are bassless.

This "Stupid Interval Bar Copypasta" is the one he referenced in the beginning of the topic.

Quote by 20Tigers
I've seen people talk about the MP3 being disabled or dismantled in UG. Is this true?

It still see MP3s on people profiles, can upload MP3s to my own profile, can create a new "band profile" and upload MP3s there too.

In the little grey box at the top right of the screen where your username and avatar is with the four white links - profile, ugplus, history, favourites - click profile then look at the same box in the top right. One of the links now says music. Click on it and you can upload music.

When you visit someone else's profile there is a tab called MP3s on their profile page that lets you listen to their MP3s

I know that it is more common to post on soundcloud and whatever, I'm just curios as to why everyone says that UG has abandoned MP3 hosting? Is there a memo somewhere that I'm not paying attention to??

Might be cause you're a Mod you still have that perk. None of us see what you're seeing. They sad this:

To all fellow UGers,

It's been more than 5 years since we implemented mp3 upload and
store functionality to the website. Unfortunately this feature
never got popular and kept rarely used for all these years.

It's takes server resources and storage space to host all these
files, besides many situations when copyrighted materials were
posted and caused damage to Ultimate Guitar.

After all these years, we decided to remove this functionality.
We are closing UG Mp3 project this coming Monday, September 1th.

You can download your files stored on the website at this page.

UG Team


Hail? No, but raining today...kind of heavy, but no Hail

Quote by bassalloverthe
That's why most musicians think guitarists are mouth breathing ret.ards

damnant quod non intelligunt

Enough with the smallness. Your air of superiority and the need to distinguish "musicians" from "Guitarists" is asinine, juvenile (although to be fair, most juveniles don't have that level of audacity) and ridiculous. I'm not going to call you names, but your behavior is elitist and your words are elitist and it all makes you look terribly terribly tiny. I mean even a middle aged man overcompensating in his red sports car would think you're pathetic.

Stop already with your teacup aristoractic airs. This isn't Harvard, nor Oxford in the 1800's.

You vacillate between that, and flouncing about and stamping like a petulant child resorting to name calling, apparent hatred and vulgarity. Is it really that hard for you to manage yourself? Don't presume to start "helping" people until you learn how to conduct yourself on the most basic of levels. Seriously.

You talk, and it makes sense, initially.

You talk more, and you look like an idiot with no social skills at all and all but discredit anything that preceded it or follows.

Is that the game plan here?


I'd see them more as drone notes, but I get your point.

A better pedal tone example might be in the intro to Crazy Train, where they play an F# and then another note then F# etc. Or in the fill during the Sweet Child of Mine riff, just before the first verse starts.


Quote by jerrykramskoy
Duane, Jet ...

I suspect we're agreeing, but maybe learned differently? But I could well be wrong in terminology here, and happy to be corrected.

To me, the use of the word "key" means both a tonal centre and a scale choice (from my jazz background).

For sure, the progression is pushing towards the chord of Bb maj, but since there are some chords there that are not diatonic to the scale of Bb major, I'd thus not say this was in the key of Bb major. I would say it centred on the Bb tonality. I'd also say that Bb maj or mixolydian could be used over this.

For sure, the Dm7 and F7 backup the key of Bb major.

cheers, Jerry

In Jazz it gets a little complex. I might see that the chords change key 3 times in the verse (Satin Doll for example with all the ii V I's), but someone else may see it as to how it resolves.

Nothing is absolute, even leaving Jazz, but in general in the scope of most discussions, here, we look at "Key" not as scale at all, but as the framework and resolution of chords. The scale becomes a personal matter and preference, once the "tonal" center is established. If the song end's comfortably, what it ends on, in general is seen as the key.

There are lots of famous examples and exceptions where that very criteria is up for discussion and debate, but this is the general meaning. It helps to have a grasp, but not a dogma, on this.


Quote by bassalloverthe
TS didnt ask any questions, so Im not sure what your talking about. No, literally, he didnt even mention the word guitar in his whole post

Okay, since you dont seem to understand why this music is modal, I will do you this favor one time. Go to the chant library, and pick your two favorite pieces. I will explain to you all the characteristics which make them unique from tonal music.

And no, its not about "Im so smart." Its about "these are the resources that led me to my conclusions. I encourage you to look over them and reach your own conclusions."

OK, I see your point there. He may not have been a guitar player. But it seemed to me that he was, given his response to the whole "chant" idea. Which to me, I don't see many people from UG taking that video and chanting.

I do not need convincing that it is modal, but when I teach I do try to make it relevant to the guitar, and it seemed this TS/OP was trying to do, as the backbone for this discussion.

And, I don't think anyone would raise objections if you present and intend your comments to mean "these are the resources that led me to my conclusions. I encourage you to look over them and reach your own conclusions.".

I certainly would find no fault, if that's what you're doing. But, that may not work in serving the TS, if he doesn't know they "why" it's modal. To you, that answer may be secure, but to the TS not so much.

Maybe the TS can take you on your offer by selecting a chant or two!


Quote by bassalloverthe
Nah, Im not going to. Just because your a lazy ass doesnt mean Im going to compress 1000 years of music into one OP. It would be a disservice to everyone on MT and the music. Instead, I will reference you to music and literature I found inspiring. If you get something out of the sources I share, great for you. If not, thats fine because it means theres one less person that can do what I do and Im fine with that.

Also, the texts I post are going to be more in depth and informative than I could ever be

I think you are afraid of looking at them, because god forbid, MT actually figure out what modes are and then we cant have these wonderful circle jerk discussions anymore

Not. My. Problem. Its a thread about modes, not guitar.

Maybe instead of being a debbie downer, you would just check out some of the stuff I posted, and then I would get to the modal music with the lutes in it.

Also...sorry, Im just having a really hard time understanding why this is difficult to apply to guitar. I mean, piano plays chords. Guitars play chords. Hell, in jazz music, half the time you give the piano player and the guitarist the same part. Whats going on here shawn? No, but serious, how does it not apply to guitar?

^Sorry alan, I feel like my presence combined with shawn has ruined this thread. In all honestly, I was just trying to show people some music which is without a doubt modal, so that we could at least avoid the question of whether or not the material in question is modal.

Seems like since crazyshawn cant dispute the tonal characteristics of the music I posted, they are attacking the way I submitted it to the forum

I can see that you missed everything.

I didn't write it, your TS did.

Take it up with him as to why it's not.your.problem. Context is everything. I'm not the one making the objection. I'm passing along the context. I'm not the one here asking the questions. I teach. I'm here helping, not asking for help.

So, even if you say this music is modal, you don't help anyone, that wants to understand it, by leaving out the "why" its modal, which reduces your part in this, to "hey here's what I know and you don't, aren't I a smart one".

But you're right. Maybe 1-1000 will look at your "inspiring works" and get what you mean by it. Mission accomplished.

@Alan, you're right. Music has progressed to where the word Mode and Modal have been pushed out to mean a lot of things. I sometimes have to hold my tongue and resist typing something like "Enjoy playing your minor scale" when I read someone's "illuminative" approach to why they have "unlocked" the Modes. It's poignant and sad, when I see someone think they've expanded their playing, and they are just playing Minor or Major.

One of my past students when he first came to me, was all excited how, when he played in the key of Am, "G Mixo" fit perfectly. Like this was a real discovery to him. I took a deep breath and did not hit my head upon the nearest hard surface. I told myself, "there's time...there's still time." Happily I straightened him out, and he's an amazing, world class player. I'll let you judge:

But really, trying to contribute to discussions, like this Modes one, is like herding cats at times.


Great stuff Jet, and very thorough. One point that I think you might want to break down, in case it was a point that some might lose, is the discussion of How and why a statement and example you gave IS the case.


Check this progression out: (Key:Bb Major)

Bb - Bb7 - Eb - Ebm7 - Dm7 - Db7 - Cm7 - F7

That looks pretty complex right? Nope. All those chords are a functioning progression pointing to Bb major. As such, we can successfully improvise over the entire progression using only the pitches of the triad: Bb D F.

Maybe outline for some of our users how the apparently "complex" is a functioning progression in Bb. Because, I can see where some may not have made that leap and followed how/why it is in Bb.


Quote by Lord hazel
When playing in a certain key, do all the notes in a chord need to be part of the scale being used? I mean, if I'm playing C Minor, would I always play F Major chord and not minor because the major third - A is part of the scale and the minor third isn't?

No they do not NEED to. Diatonic Harmony and Cadence is your first port of call, so to speak. Its a good idea to have a grasp on that before you know how to go about the outside chords. Fm can be played in the Key of C but it's not *Diatonic" You could go C Dm G Am F Fm and resolve upon C very easily. The Fm is not diatonic to C. But, my suggestion would be make sure you have diatonic down cold, and then add to that knowledge with modal interchanges, secondary dominants and such.

That was a great question, and I am sure that more people other than yourself have struggled with it.

From a chord and guitar solo approach, you'd find that your normal scales work fine, even with most of the Fm, and the off notes would sound like color. If you wanted to match to that chord when playing over it, you could add an Ab to your scale over the Fm, but again, using your ear and appreciating the little tension that you have in the scale, is not a bad thing either.


Quote by bassalloverthe
Or how about you read all those treatises, books, doctoral theses, and scores I posted 2 months ago when we went over this once already. Thats where I learned from, so if you have an issue, you can take it up with the author

Start here

Heres how to read it, since you probably cant

When your done, you can give me a blow job for using google for you. And then we will move onto the Renaissance.


Taking bets on whether shawn will learn something, or come back with another "witty" response

No witty response needed. I'll let you see the results of your help, by none other than the OP:

I'm waiting for that too. There was an example of some Catholic Chanting as modal via a youtube video. I would never attempt to translate that to my guitar. We need a good example, with some chord/scale theory behind it to clearly explain how these guys view modes used in their proper form.

That's what made me suggest a "lesson". If you need a "Template" use JetPenguin, and establish your points, and maybe you'll be a lot more persuasive in your enlightening of the masses. I'll even have a look.

On a more serious note, I don't see where you have to get vulgar, just because you don't like what I say. It just shows lack of class and the ability to maintain one's self. Get some air, and stay on point. We aren't mortal enemies, really...


Quote by bassalloverthe
Well, I know for a fact I know more than you at least. If theres one thing the Catholic church teaches you, its how to sing modal music

So you can leave the thread any time now

Thanks for your outstanding contribution


Can anyone explain why shawn hasnt been banned for advertising and off topic shit posting?

It's a good thing that you "know" more than me, now you can use the other arm, and match disfigurement with the other one.

I will continue to call your snobbish elitist remarks out. Trust me. If you don't like it, pull your head out of the Grey Poupon, set down the Robb Report for a second, and stop trumping your so called superiority. Show what you know by helping people, and quit pushing your ego forward, and trust me, over time, your knowledge will show itself for what it is, and people will respect you. But when you come into a topic waving your white-gloved, aristocratic finger saying "tut tut tut", I'm going to speak up.

I can name 10 people on MT that can run laps around your "knowledge" none of whom are me, but I don't need to name them; they know who they are, and chances are they are seen as such from the members of the forum. Even if I were better than you, I'd never say it, not only is it juvenile, and small, it's also unnecessary. A man's works precede him. I'll let what I do speak for me. I'm content with that. Because that's what I'm here for; to help others, and to work, inspire, encourage, correct, and mentor others. It's what I've been doing for years.

You can say all you like about me, I'm still going to call you out, until you finally "get it". Once you do, I'll be the first to welcome you to the forum as a contributing member. That's all it takes. It's not rocket science.




PS - as for my contribution to this thread, there's nothing more to say that hasn't been said to the OP by myself, Alan, and a number of other people, including you. Which, by the way I agreed with your points to him, (without your self-aggrandizement).
I think bass and John Prophet should collaborate upon a modal lesson together and enlighten the ignorant masses out here.

I'll take a chair ...


Quote by JacobusV
I'm currently learning about pentatonic scales. I don't always have time to practice since school has me
so busy,but I'm still practicing as much as I can. I read around the forum,and there's a lot of helpful advice,but it stil doesn't answer my questions.
1)How the heck do you make up a solo?
2)I have a book that taught me the forms of all 5 scales. There are practice songs,but it says "solo using the A minor pentatonic scale" and the say I should play A7 and in the world do I play a chord over the pentatonic scale then?
3) Why do I need to learn pentatonic scales?

Thanks in advance

1. You solo by playing notes and deciding what you like, by ear. A few basic techniques never hurts, like various articulations. It also never hurts if you practice solos over a chord progression that fits the key.

2. I'd have to see the book in question. My guess is possibly arpeggios are suggested?

3. You don't ever "need" to do anything, but its a great frst scale, because f you have the right key, most of the notes work, and there aren't a lot of notes that will get you into trouble, and it's a very versatile scale that's useful in many genres.

Why don't you put that book down if its confusing, and instead take a scale, and a backing track in one key and play and listen and mess with it a bit? Do you take lessons, or are you self taught?


Quote by bassalloverthe
I probably have more personal experience with modes across different tuning systems and notation styles and more genres than anyone on MT

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, mate. Elitism is so sexy. I'd hate to see you become disfigured.


I think it's mostly good, but you need to have thick skin, and be willing to learn. I have not seen a lot of people "attacked" I've seen more pretentious newbie know it all elitist types show up and try to make a splash and get into head butting contests, and generally set the forums right. It gets a little old. Those that make it through the gauntlet, learn how it works. It's all in how you present yourself. I think if you show respect it get's returned.

Overall, I think there's a lot of great elements and people, the vast majority I respect. As long as you know how to comport yourself, read between the lines, of what's said, and not get all defensive and huffy, you'll get a lot of traction here. Most of you know me, if I see someone attacking another, just to be an ass I'll call them out. It doesn't happen often, and when it does, I've seen many respected regulars jump in as well.

There are a diversity of people, perspectives and opinions, and I think it enhances this place. There are many regulars that I think are solid and well meaning contributors.



Someday you and I will go to the pub and I'm gonna buy you potato juice for such a brilliant analogy!

Potato Juice!


Peoples opinions on what is good or not is a very, very subjective matter, and in the end, you are going to have to form a subjective opinion on their skills or their words. Even both, it's a subjective call.

If you need to hear their skills then subjectively you'll have to find that it agrees with your palate to make their posts have additional merit. Either way, one doesn't validate the just might make you buy their words. However their words can be way off and their playing, not. This is no more reliable than what we have now.

I don't see where playing comes into it.

I don't play. Well I had an original song I played and sang using 5 chords and an acoustic, in my profile for years, until it got torn down. I had a lot of high rankings for it, but that just means they liked it. That is subjective. Maybe others hated it because of the style. I don't know. But that doesn't add to my credibility and it was never designed to.

I was just sharing a song, a slice of me, but that did not play into what I talk about here or what I know, except maybe a creative bridge idea?


(stepping baaaack from this topic...slowly..quietly)

Ok that didn't work.

Yeti, these guys gave you some good advice. You clearly are trying to help and I admire that, but hopefully you are also getting benefit from the wisdom of other's comments. There's just a lot more to it, than you have at the present time!


Quote by Dunn
A concrete suggestion would be appreciated. Anyone?

What was not concrete in the answers given in the thread leading to your post, exactly?


And, to add to all of this, practice studying and learning to create a good Cantus Firmus. The basics of counterpoint, might be a better initial first step. Work with all the species. Fux,'s book is a great place, and I think explains it well.

I'd also second the Chorale studies, and try writing some of your own.


Quote by Elintasokas
Don't you know it's illegal to SAY triads in Jazz?


Jet - Hey Polychording doesnt count. I know what you're up can't hide!


Quote by koslack
This might be the worst case of the pot calling the kettle black I have seen in my life.

Amen. As if THAT mattered to anyone, more. Sheets of paper, granules of sand.

Some people take him seriously. I guess that's awfully deep thinking and progressive of them. I'm going to have to wave the white flag, because I run the borderline between not understanding, and not caring about it.


Quote by Jet Penguin
Well even when comping a single chord, you want to play a melodic line. Strumming the same Cmaj7 voicing is a pretty boring melody. E E E E E E E E E E E

Sometimes I ditch the chords for a bar or two and play counter-melodies and do a little duet with the soloist.

And yes, I've gotten more than a fair share of dirty looks from sax players.

Pfft! Typical Jazzer where the minimum chord is a 7th


Serious question:

Are you on meds? Bi Polar ...something...anything that explains this? I hate the thought that you might actually be mentally ill and sincere, and people are piling on you. Because thats the only thing that would rationally explain this.

Not that you have these thoughts...that's fine...

But that some synapse in your head thinks "Hey others must understand what I mean, without explaination, let's get their input." That's as random as me starting a thread saying

Kyoo wa ii otenki desu ne!

Makes sense to few and I hardly have qualified my audience. Maybe in a Japanese forum, that's appropriate.

No one's picking on you, but you're either bored, trolling, mental, or just playing Martyr. You can read, you have posted threads, you know the response. So this eliminates accidental ignorance. I don't buy that. It's either intentionally you being stupid, and trying to stir things up, which is the majority opinion, OR you're mental, and don't know better and that's part of your condition.

How do I know you haven't been set free with a laptop to presumably "explore" your world, while mental, only to find, that yeah most of us haven't a clue what you're talking about.

I'm not making light of this, I have seen mental people seemingly believe in their "thing", and no one else has a clue what they are talking about.

I knew a guy who thought everything in the world sucked compared to David Hasselhoff, and he had everything from old Knight Rider, to his solo music, and adored the guy. No one else compared. Why? I don't know, but he was mental and we let him ramble on. To his "world" that was and made total sense.


Quote by Jet Penguin
I know Sean, I'm too nice to you guys.

I stuck it in the Q&A post.

Lady Bird is a great tune to work on. You get great practice on a backdoor dominants, turnarounds AND you go through 3 keys all while avoiding a blindingly fast tempo.

If you want to crank up the speed, there's a Miles tune called Half Nelson that is the same changes at 2x the speed.

Boom headshot! You aced that explanation!

You may have the gift of being able to become a teacher.

Being able to break it down, is not something everyone can do, and retain the majority of people following. I already know the answers, but I'm egging you on, and you're nailing them. It's one thing to KNOW them, it's another altogether to be able to explain it correctly, and concisely on a very simple level. That's what I tried to do with Giant Steps, so I can appreciate when I see you doing it.

I like the layout of this, and how you're adding it to the QA post. I didn't follow the format at first but its effective.

But to elaborate on the smoothing.

and put it into the bVII chord:

Fm7 - Bb7(#11) - C

Bb7#11 is Lydian Dominant all the way. That #11 is E - the major 3rd of C.

Ab is the b7

So comparing the notes side by side, you have:

F Ab C and Eb
Bb D F Ab and E

See how the voices move by smaller, 1/2 step increments, or are already "there"? This is an example of smooth voice leading.


You know now, that you brought it up JP, you're going to HAVE to explain the backdoor V - I, right?n (bVII I)

And you don't see the Eb Ab as simply a V I up a minor 3rd from C? That's how I look at it. And then the bII...simply creative reharmonization

See what you did?


No, because my name isn't Will.


Quote by PinkZepStones
hi all,

ive posted a few times in MT now and got great responses, i feel like im finally getting somewhere after hitting a brick wall learning guitar,

long story short my technical ability is very good but theory wise i am lackkiiinnngggg.

ive decided to hit a middle ground of keeping guitar fun and developing some theoretical skills. that is to learn guitar parts to a collection of music i like, analyse the construction and the chord/scale names/types, and learn all of it where it can be helped by ear.

ive seen countless questions posed to the old wizards of rock (clapton, page, beck, may) etc and they all seem to state they learnt by listening records on vinyl.

surely with the myriad of techniques and feel those guys display learning the "old fashioned" way as oppose to the good ol internet is one of the greatest ways to improve youre guitar playing and knowledge.

can anyone vouch for this and advise anything further that may help? ive just nailed the solo from sick again by ear and its such a good feeling!

It depends upon what you put into it. You seem to think that learning theory wouldn't be fun. It is, if you have the skill sets and underlying knowledge to see it and apply it.

It's really your choice, if you are looking for affirmation, I'd say, do whatever you think is fun. You may take a lot longer to get where you're headed, if theory is a part of it. To me that's like saying, "Instead of medical college, I thought Id watch all the things about my favorite drama ER and then go wikipedia/Web MD the names of the diseases after each show".

I'm not saying that you should or do see it that way, but as someone that teaches this, I'm on the opposite side of the hill from where you are and that's how it looks to me.

So, while I can't "vouch" for you, because I really wouldn't, what I think also really does not matter. I think it's important that whatever you do or do not do, that you to keep things fun and fresh, so if that's the way you see being the best of both worlds, go for it! Keep it fun.


I look at two things, maybe this is simpler. But I can look at the overall tonal center of the progression.

The first relationship I look for is a Triad. As soon as I "find" the triad I consider the extensions. What are they? Sometimes I find what seems to be the triad with some broken "teeth" There might be a Missing Root, or 5th, and for me its like looking at a strand of DNA.

For example your first chord:

E - 4 G#
B - 4 D#
G - 4 B
D - 4 F#
A - 7 E
E - open E

I found the E G# B immediately, making the others simple by extension. F# is the 9th and D# was the maj7.

I can do it visually, and by knowing the notes of any triad, and by association, any extended chord voicing immediately. Like I said, it's really just seeing that triad in any form.

I know also there is a B triad, but that makes the E the 11th, and the 3rd is present so it's not a sus 4. Ugly, plus you're doubling that E in the two lowest voices if that was taking on the function of a B. So, eliminated. so the G# being a 13th or 6th doesn't really jive either.

I also didn't think it likely to be a G#m7b13, where the b13 is the bass note and the next highest voice.

But simply knowing every chord instantly and ascertaining the remaining extensions, is cake. I can do it visually or cerebrally.

I see notes like constellations. Or really, like word searches. You know, how some people see clusters of seemingly random letters and others see the words? I see the fretboard, and it's like a word search where I can see everything at once and pick out these consetellations of chords from them. Having a database of those chords, already there in my brain certainly helps, I suppose.

On your C maj7/E (Really? Tom Hess....That surprised me, Jerry...didn't see that coming...)

You have E C E G B E - Some sort of Em add b13 would be the consensus? I don't know. I see the argument, but its less common, and that b13 adds a tension that's not commonly encountered. Unless it was a descending E figure, in context where the notes were slightly changing over an E drone, ala pitch axis, I wouldn't have called it that.

I'd have called it Cmaj7/E in first inversion.

@Jet re: E-7(#5)

It wouldn't be a #5 unless you're running a 5 B and #5 B# (simultaneously?? That's outside my paygrade, if you consider that common practice)'s some sort of b13, and there's no 7th so not even a minor 7th in this chord.





I commend you for a very clean and concise first post. I read through how you used modal names, and your rationales for the chords scale tones. And especially your treatment of the 4/11 over the I. You did a slam dunk in identifying the "seeming" conflicts between CST and the victors of each argument. I read though your words very carefully for accuracy, because in the years I've been here, I've never seen anyone that could yet explain it correctly without screwing up and mixing contexts.

I can't find anything that's wrong with your information, so kudos to you. That is commendable.

So, I'll have to make my points regarding another users comments, that of function.

In Jazz, functionally, we are thinking ii V...not predominants. --- That's classical music theory trying to bump their way drunkingly into the party. Jazzers do not think in that way in that context. There's Coltrane subs, Byrd subs, and Tritone subs. There's reharmonizations...but the thing we are doing most of the time is smashing those ii V's.

m7b5 VAlt7 i, (X7sus and X7#5 are two of my faves) are as you said ii V i in minor keys (Think Blue of my all time favorites). In jazz it's really about taking the basics from there and coloring them up. And thinking in these terms, with a few cool tricks, is how we tend to do it.