So let me get this right: Are you asking for opinions or not? Because you seem to get a little defensive, when people tell you things that you don't want to hear.

You mention an anaolgy of a teacher. A teacher is responsible to teach. I know this, because I teach these things every day to people who pay me. In your analogy of a History teacher, they are paid to teach you.

This is where you've lost reality though.

We aren't here to teach you.

We can help you, sure, with questions, but when we tell you what to go and do and what you need, that's when you need to stop and go do THAT thing....and that help increases the more that we see you've got your own skin in the game, and are investing into your own development.

We aren't here to babysit for you and wipe up your messes.

You're trying to get people to look at your work, tell you what's wrong AND how to fix it. That's teaching by proxy. What else have you done?

What are the names of theory books that you've opened up and worked your way through?

What teachers did you hire to oversee your development?

In the immortal words of the great movie "Office Space"

"What is it that you'd DO here?"


Yes. I have had my students not only start bands within 2 years but open for famous musicians and touring acts. It all depends upon the commitment, and work you put into it. These guys all did what I said, never argued, and went out and did it.


Quote by jongtr
Well, I might be deliberately contrary here, and say we learn grammar (I mean of our native language) in order to pass exams. That could well be the same with music theory. It doesn't have to relate to the successful and efficient uses of either language or music.
If I want to hang with the gang down on the street corner, my English Language degree is probably not going to cut much ice....

But a more apt analogy might be with learning a foreign language. In that case, a fair degree of book learning of grammar and spelling is certainly going to help back up (and speed up) the learning we can do by ear.
As with music, we could go to that country, live there a while, and pick it all up by ear well enough to get along. (We'd certainly get the accent right....) But it's going to be a hell of a lot easier with some books to help.

Music is not quite a foreign language - it's easier to learn it by ear than it is to learn a foreign language - but much of its grammar is similarly mysterious. It sure helps to be able to translate those sounds into written symbols, words and phrases. Not just for talking about it with others, but for organising it in our own heads.
OK, I'm not disagreeing. It sounds like I'm down on music theory here, but nothing could be further from the truth!
Not until they see what you can do with it anyway....
If I'd been a bandleader back in the 1930s, I'd have been a fool to turn down Django Reinhardt just because he could barely write his own name, let alone read music...
Then again, of course, how many of us are Django Reinhardt??

We're on the same side here...

It's a terrible artificial analogy. How many woodworkers can you name that are of note and talent that do not know what a saw is called?

Exactly. And how many woodworkers of note do you know of that can name all their tools and understand every last nuance of them?


Quote by enloartworks
Haha Damn, But at least you have nice bassguitars right?lol
And true. The little melody over the e i thought sounded lydian until the chord changes of course which is what all This thread was talking about lol

Finally, we have someone that came to the thread, listened, asked questions, worked it out and now he gets it.

Being humble enough to listen and be teachable is a great quality to have. More users could learn from you.


Quote by enloartworks
Holy crap if you play a c maj scale against a gdom7 its g mixolydian. That's all however you want to view it is fine. And no i don't know what cadences are id love to learn about it though if you care to explain.

I applaud your willingness to learn about cadences. You have some options there: You can hire someone to teach you, or you can learn it by teaching yourself, by getting a book on theory and following it through, or just do your own research online, and put the work in! Good luck on that! Then you will better have the framework to address modes. Right now, you don't. But at least you know this now. Now you know what to do. That's half the battle!


Quote by enloartworks
cool man,
so when is mixolydian applicable? on any dom 7 chord? and what other scales work with dominant chords?

Play a Dom7 chord and dont ever change it. Play Mixolydian. That applies. The Harmony is no longer major or minor. It's a static harmony. Modes are static, they dont transpose and move around like major and minor keys. Since you know diatonic theory you're in the right place, but do you know cadences?


Quote by Billie_J
Thank God I'm getting my theory book this week. I managed to form chords by moving the notes together. But I have no idea about their names..

Yes get your theory book. Good call.


Slash has been playing guitar for longer than most readers here have been alive. Add to that thousands of playing dates, and I imagine he's gotten to the point where he can play the guitar how he likes. That's how he does it. Imagine if you did anything for 30 years. You might get pretty good at it. That makes sense, right.


Yeah, I get what you're saying though.

I used to make an approach that was more or less, I can help you with all this, but I cant give it away for free, because I make a living with it, and its a slap in the face to those who pay me.

I still can't.

That's never changed, but I've mellowed a bit. I try not to make those statements any more, and rather, I just help where I can. If people need more they can contact me for mentoring. Which has always been free with no strings.

And there IS a place of please ask, that's what these forums are for. But there's always been an expectation that, when you ask, make sure you have the attending knowledge to understand the answer. Hence why so many mode threads go awry very quickly.

My point and hope for you is that you're actually out there investing into your own knowledge, as in reading books. Say what people will about Liampj, but at some point, after all that time, the dude, went out and bought the AB Guide to Music Theory, and started going through it, and I respect the hell out of him for that. His questions soon were being resolved, and any other questions he'd raise all had legitimate basis, and points to them, augmenting his music theory studies, and not as a subsidy for not studying.

I hope the same for you. Its not about money, but it is about investment into your own development.

If a person doesn't want to know or learn theory, then what the hell do they care what key a song is in?

Just use your ear and find notes that fit.

I know I'm coming across as grouchy right now, but we've all seen this - I dont want to be bothered, just answer me, kind of posts. That get's old. Just because they post here doesn't mean they want help, many just want answers that are convenient, and there's a difference, I'm sure you'd agree.



All due respect, let's keep some things in mind. Many times people come here asking questions, without the foundation to understand the answers given. When that happens, the proper move there, is educate yourself and then come back. It's not to have someone now tasked on a topic to also supplement ones backwards education model. Backwards education happens when, instead of preparing oneself for investing in and being responsible for their own (what I know and what I don't) knowledge and development, they subtly apply pressure to the person responding, that "no it's not that I don't invest in my own education it's that YOU speak over my head, and you need to bring things down to my level, and in cases where I don't understand and have the attending background knowledge, well YOU need to bring me up to speed on that as well in a way that I understand as well."

Then it becomes teaching by proxy. At some point people become indentured, conscripted servants, by the simple matter, that (person) is unwilling to own their education except it come from convenience, not investment. Which sucks because the line between helping people and teaching becomes blurry.

If someone doesn't understand, it's not our fault. There are books and resources out there. These days, ignorance is not a valid excuse. People don't know because they haven't invested. anyone can grab Berklees Modern Method for next to nothing. They won't though, because they don't want to. It steps on their insistence for immediate gratification and figures poorly into their value systems that only want things that arrive through the least amount of personal investment.

Now you might say, "some people don't mind teaching us", but that's their call to make not the person who doesn't know. I object to the thinly veiled entitlement intimations that I see as a subtext to "questions". If you don't know or understand something, that's not our doing, it's yours. That's not our job to fix, it's yours. And by fix I mean something different than "posing an array of questions in a different color text" rather than own your own actions and get out there and read a book, or hire a teacher. We aren't helping ignorance, we are catering to someone's insistence that their education be made convenient.


A major 7 add 9 isn't even a good choice for a chord name. That's like saying a major triad with an added 3rd. Just call it a Major 9th. That works, and is correct.



I emailed mine to JP. Now all he has to do is make mine sound cool. That, and KH like so Ronald will like me. Maybe Xiaoxi will bail me out there. By the way I took the note values and melody lines way too literally, I've discovered, but too late...I've already sent it in. tRI tOnEs for Ever.


Quote by bryanmcand
You're wasting time with Audacity, Repeaer etc. Just get GarageBand, it's the best and most affordable multi-track DAW in my opinion. Works on Mac, iPhone and iPad so hopefully you have one of those 3 devices. GarageBand comes with hundreds of musical instrument loops you will ever need, including drums, lead guitars, acoustic guitars, bass, beats, even sitar and tabla. Just go with GarageBand and you'll be making music in no time.

You're absolutely right. There's nothing like not being able to EQ anything!


Quote by theogonia777
Chris Thile isn't really that great to be honest. I don't know why you love him so much.

I don't know. That was pretty great. I don't know what made that not to you, but knowing what that is and hearing that level of execution applied to
the complexity of the instrumentation, you must be hearing tones of perfection on a far more granular level than me.


It does help if you at least understand diatonic harmony (the exact chords made from each note of any major as it can give pretty strong indications as to the chords signaling the possible or likely keys. I think it's great that you're interested in knowing such things. It's a great springboard to start learning theory. I don't know what you know about music in general, though or how well you know your fretboard, but those can make your attempts to learn easier.

In general though we define the key by where or what chord the song seems to end on. A lot of times I use that when figuring out songs. Once I do that usually it's a small matter of filling in the rest of the chords around the key.


"To me, the reality is you need to master both, the patterns and what's actually going on underneath."

This... to a degree, but the answer is as individual as the people that play.

You walk before you learn to run. Patterns for some reason get stigmatize here. I see nothing wrong with them. They become a part of a natural musical development. I see patterns as consequential to the physical properties of the guitar. In a pentatonc sense, whether you have them as pitches, tendencies, or notes at the end it's 5 notes and your ear now what are you going to do with them?

When you're starting out, you're learning pitch collections; you're discovering how they sound against chords if a "key" even if you don't know keys yet. Progressions are already done, and you're creating something that hopefully through more trial and less error (backing tracks) sound good. Imitation is also a big part of this.

At some point, you feel like you've got a handle on it, starting to establish your musical voice more, and now you want more notes, so next come the patterns of major scales, minor scales, and most people just practice these notes and patterns over backing tracks, keys etc. They just have a few more to work with and more ear work and pattern familiarity. More chances to land on dissonant notes.

Maybe around this time, its a good idea to learn chords, triads, and other idioms of music theory, and start targeting notes and lines as chords change (chord tone playing) Then the playing becomes a bit more specific, less carpet bombing.

And so it goes from there. You might experiment with chromatic alterations, various approaches (CST) and the like. Its evolutionary, but as you grow and mature, each step plays a part in it, including patterns or shapes or scales, and depending on how far you want to take it, the essential idea as I've seen it, is that there's usually 3 stages:

Discovery, Comfort, Contentment/Boredom ---> if it's boredom, evolve to the next stage or stagnate.

That said, it also depends upon what that person wants, and what motivates them, and makes them enjoy music. There are those who enter into their 50's and 60's content with learning one classic rock song after another and discussing their Les Paul's and Joe Bonamassa with other guitar players. They will never get past a few pet licks and the blues scales. There are others who reach the stage of jazz, or bebop, or whatever. Not everyone's going to travel the same path or the same distance. Some will want to know more and more, others will be just fine with where they are.


Quote by Vlasco
It amazes me that you're only the second person I've ever met so far that looks at the whole FACE thing this way. Why it isn't mainstream (at least in English speaking countries), I don't know.

I don't know, but for some reason my whole teaching career has been marked by deviating away from "the way things are traditionally taught and explained". Yet another example of that. I'm just happy that the way I wrote this out, has been helpful to people.


Quote by Leafs_fan_37
Knowing the scales is great. It makes changing keys on guitar 1000 times easier. But when I see am F# on the sheet, I don't correlate that with a particular fret in my mind. Since the scales can transpose so easily, I think in terms of scales instead of notes. It's very useful for improvisation, but not for reading.
Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well.

The main point is that I'm just looking for recommendations on exercises that can be engaging. I find that when I'm trying to remember that the sixth fret on the G string is a C#, etc, it can get tedious.

So it sounds like you are looking for a faster way to identify or recall or find Notes on the Neck of a guitar? Is that correct?


I thought we were doing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star? So if every other note in the melody is the actual song and the other is a Tritone off the actual melody that would be next, it should look like:

C Gb G Db A Eb
twin kle twin kle lit tle

Wouldn't it?

@ 4th Horse hmm.. Rule idea - maybe make every major 3rd interval a minor 3rd?


Every OTHER melody note has to be a tritone away from it's usual location. Thats gonna be my rule.


Quote by Dolphin Guitar
Im having an hard time understanding modes. I see that many modes have the same CAGED box patten as the major scale but i am told that they are completely different. i understand that each mode has is on forum for example Ionian (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) Dorian (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7) and so on... Also i have seen sometimes that each position of the major scale is named after a mode but each one contains the exact same notes how is this?

if i played a D Dorian mode would that be in the scale of C because Dorian starts on the second note of the scale?

can some please explain so that i can understand the concept of modes better?

To get the concept of modes down, I think it helps to understand that a lot of people use the term and it means different things.

For example, Playing a "Mode" over a Drone Bass line, or a very tightly enclosed vamp of 2 chords that doesn't change or invoke the V chord is one way

Another is using these scale names as a Chord Scale theory, popularized by Berklee and other forms of thought, is another matter all together.

Another is the Classical traditional way of what was considered modal in music, all the way back to the gregorian chant.

For others they think it's some exotic scale played over power chords in a rock concept and it sounds all neat and cool and I wanna do that, kind of thing...

So, which of these best expresses your point of view and what you're interested in?


I'm very skeptical. A lot of people say they "know" this or that ....scales, chords, etc. No you do not, brother, not even little bit. What you claim to have done in the first month, would be very very shoddy, if at all I'm not saying that to be combative or a troll, but I make my living teaching, and none of what you say lines up at all.

Again, Im being straight with you, you match the profile of a very specific type of over achiever, who doesn't get one thing down well, before he loses patience and needs stimulation and off he goes bouncing like Tigger to the next.

Now are you passionate, yeah, I grant you that, but my spidey senses are tingling and...truthfully I don't care what you are or aren't. You could tell me you wrestle a gorilla and Im not going to be impressed, but...I don't want YOU to be a casualty of your own self deception/perception. The quantity of the work you've done, I don't question. The efficacy of the work you've done, I am highly concerned about.

So in a nutshell, I think that you don't know a 10th of what you think you know, because you haven't reached any maturation stages with those things. Its almost like you wen't ADD and said "OK I know that what's next?"

... without anything taking root.

If I told you I went through medical school in 25 days, and I was going to be your heart surgeon today....what would you think of that?


Quote by 20Tigers
yeah, or don't do that. What an awfully complicated diagram. I'm glad if it helped you but I can't see the benefit.

It was a long time ago before mobile phones and only a last resort if I had a very out of tune guitar, no starting pitch etc. I might try it again tomorrow.

Yeah but on the other hand, you have to admit, that would make for a great quilting pattern!


This is something I've seen Eric Johnson do. but it's actually using the "tip" of the finger (no hyper extension) to hold down two notes. It's a finesse move where you actually have your index in the gap between the adjacent strings with just enough contact on the two strings themselves. It takes practice, but it's not that far out of reach, and can be a versatile skill, opening up for some interesting chord voicings.

So that fingering as shown above is right, but try it with the tip of the finger as opposed to any "jazzy" hyperextension and using the pad.


Quote by liampje
The sound of jazz has always appealed to me, though I never really listened to jazz except for the one Miles Davis album I own.

Where do I start with playing jazz on guitar? What are some of the easiest jazz songs for people who are already fund of quite a bit of technical abilities of guitar?

Have you thought about studying it online? I'd recommend Jimmy Bruno


Quote by MeGaDeth2314
It's ideal to practice everything you learn in all 12 keys. The order you do that in doesn't really matter, as long as you get to all of them.

Is it though?

I'm not so sure I agree. Maybe a controversial stance, but hear me out.

Guitar Keys generally come down to 5:

E A C G and D

Flat keys, are generally used in Jazz and in vocalist/capo situations.

Now if you're going to be going into Jazz, I agree, that because of temporary tonicization, or key changes, like Satin Doll Changes keys, 4 times in the first verse, absolutely, learn all 12 keys, and practice them, because those ii V relationships are present everywhere in Jazz.

But if not, I'm not so sure there's a dividend for playing in all 12 keys when the chances that you are going to be playing in those keys, is slim to none.

Now, I can play in all keys without needing to practice them, and that's good. Know your key centers, your intervals etc? Notes on the neck of your guitar? Sure!

Yes, but practice them in 12 keys? There I'm not such an advocate of drinking that old glass of Kool Aid...


Yep. If you notate it in C major just because it eliminates the accidental, you're a....(insert random derisive phrase here)


Oh you make me want to breach the subject of triple flats...but I won't...I won' minds need explode today

*pushes the G Diminished 7th chord in a spare room and locks it*

Nothing to see here, folks...move along...


Quote by theawesomeginge
I was just wondering that since Emin7 is just made up of:
E, G, B & D

could you just play all the open strings (in standard tuning) except for the A?
I've tried it but it doesn't really sound right.


If you were to play that A, it's essentially an open Em 11. Your problem is that the E and A and D occupy so much of the bass ranges, before you ever get to the 3rd, which is in the middle voices. In addition, one of the notes (A, the 11th) occludes the feel of the 7th by being so much in the bass. But even if it didn't have the A, the 7th sounds in the bass before the 3rd ever does, this can bury the point of the chord, which is the 7th.

Sonically this has a muddy bass feel. Another example is if you play C with an open E 6th string. It sounds wrong, but its actually a note in the C chord.

You're on the right track, but the way you play chords an still sound good or bad depending upon how the voices are stacked.


Quote by GoldenGuitar
No good teacher would seriously say that you are learning too slow. Anything self respecting musician knows that it's vital to learn things slowly and correctly. Otherwise it'll mess up your neural connections in the long term. Find a real teacher.

X 100000

This. I didn't see these comments before I responded to him, but he's contacted me and I've listened to his examples, and they are exactly what I'd want to hear. He's slow, and patient, and he's listening to what he plays. For 10 months in, I think he's on the right track. A lot of his "inner musician" game is already there! I complimented him because he played it slow. I could do things with a student like him.


Quote by RonaldPoe
Are you two done with the grammar crap? I finished the 8 bar exercise and kept it diatonic to C Major. I think it kinda has a Victorian feel to it (like you said it's going to be cliché but I did this best I could with the instructions).

Here's a link to the midi.

Got any advice on how to improve this and/or make a battle theme out of it?

Have you identified the elements of what makes a Battle Theme seem "battle themey" to you?

Have you applied those to your composing?


I mentor for free. Check my sig. Inbox me and I'll see what I can do.


Music Reading for Guitar - David Oakes.

It's going to take you a lot longer than 2 months. But go for it.

If you want a more exhaustive, then get started on Modern Method for the Guitar - Berklee.


Quote by J23L
After hours of digging through the internet, I'm still confused on the function of dominant 7th chords. Let's say i play a C7 (C,E,G,A#) what would that resolve to? If someone is well versed in this type of stuff i would greatly appreciate your help

Have you learned to spell out Major Scales correctly and the Harmonized chords? If so, then go study Cadences. Then you'll understand.

I know you say that "you understand", but I'm not sure that you do. Like you might get that instance, but I'm not sure you get the big picture birds eye view of it.

I don't know what you know or don't so its too hard to tell if you're jumping around, or ahead, without the required foundation to understand an answer to that. We've had people like that before, one's liampje. He was notorious/legendary for asking similar questions.

What he would do, is post questions, and then pressure people to be his teacher, to literally teach him by proxy. He was a kid.

Maybe the hardest headed user I've ever run across that was ALSO ignorant.

Happy ending in his case: he grew up and learned in an organized way, basically deciding that, the advice we kept feeding him, wow, it was actually a good idea to follow.

Now when he shows up it's like, "Hey great to see you again, and now you know what you're talking about". But it took him a long long long long long time to figure out that learning in bits, just left him with a bag of "bits".


Everyone is correct. And that's not Pelog, it's a stripped out A Mixolydian, in that it has all the major identifying notes R 3rd b7 and a supporting, non characteristic one, the 6th.

However, you can still play with it in a non traditional way, by simply extracting the chords that you see out of the notes. This is where knowing triads, and chords, intervals can be useful.

In doing it that way, I'd just see it as a set of pitches, played against chords made up of the same pitches, from an experimental standpoint.

G, A, C#, E, F#, G.

In this case, though, you have some pretty tweaked-out "chords". Without being academic about it, I'd just play these as harmonic "clusters", and give them names that belie their intervalic makeup without being "chords" if I had to make names.

So a G add 9 or 11 (no 3rd or 5th) Just 2 note things, really. You can literally just play a G tritone even, if you wanted. G+4 or whatever

Or A/G

E min 6 (no 5th)



Just whatever.

You get the idea. Just abstract clusters that you can mess about with. It's very limiting, but it can be fun. I once found a strange scale that I identified 2 R-5 possibilities and I just did a 2 chord vamp while a buddy "played" the notes over them.

Harmless fun.


Quote by varundbest
Oh god, i'm up for this twelve part course!!! -

Sounds like you got it sorted then! Best of luck to you.

Took a look at the page, you linked to. I would never go that route, but let us know how it works for you.


Thing to understand that in music there are a lot of fast and loose terms, used by someone communicating this, for a chord name.

Sometimes you have to determine what they mean by inference because there's no actual chord named that.

I'd just see an add 6 as Jet showed as a plain 6th: R 3 5 6. I see "add" chords, as an occurrence when there's no 7th present, and there's an extended compound interval beyond the 7th.


I am my own band - so yeah. Acoustic Singer/songwriter. I play a Breedlove through a Fishman SoloAmp when I perform live. My equipment choices are all about the job I ultimately need to do.