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Do you still have that problem?
Implemented a fix. Do you still have that problem?
Implemented a fix. Do you still have that problem?
Quote by Arby911
But I don't like the excessive amount of obvious manipulation of public opinion perpetrated by the Russian media and the Russian officials. Such an approach doesn't benefit anyone in the long term.


Yep, works that way as well...

I would ask though...if it's 'obvious' manipulation, it's not really manipulation at all, is it? If one is aware of manipulation it's no longer manipulation, it's a conscious choice.

I long gave up on Russian media.

These manipulations are obvious only if you are able to compare the data from various sources, know the context and spend a significant time of your young life arguing over the Internet (well, at least in the part it's a correct description of me).

But I doubt that you've ever heard about the deleted report of BBC or about some of the news from Ukrainian magazines I've been posting. I don't doubt your ability of critical thinking, but lot's of stuff just doesn't get translated to English.
Quote by Carnivean
I take it Till is now admitting the rebels shot down the plane with a Russian supplied weapon?

Actually I'm just referencing the statements, without saying anything about their validity.

But I do think that it's more likely that it were the rebels.

Still there are thing that bother me. Like the reluctance of US to publish the satellite images. Or something like the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riZw-eidCFU
This is a report prepared by "BBC Russian Service". At the beginning the reporter is interviewing the locals and they are saying that they saw a second plane following MH17. BBC later deleted the report from their website and issued a following statement: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Frussian%2Fblogs%2F2014%2F07%2F140724_blog_editors_bbc_story_rework.shtml
So they are saying that the report was not fully consistent with "editorial standards of BBC" and that "they will let us know when the report will be republished". As far as I know the report was never republished, instead they are chasing the footage all over the youtube and deleting it for copyright violation.

I'm not saying that it proves the innocence of the rebels. But I don't like the excessive amount of obvious manipulation of public opinion perpetrated by the western media and the US officials. Such an approach doesn't benefit anyone in the long term.
Quote by Neo Evil11
It was stupid to fly a plane there, but apparently at that altitude it was supposed to be safe. Who knew Russia had given the rebels such weapons?

Well, actually Ukraine said that it knew. On the day of the crash the head of Ukraine's security council released a statement, that "terrorists got a Buk missile system".
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcensor.net.ua%2Fnews%2F294220%2Fv_snbo_zayavlyayut_chto_u_terroristov_est_voennaya_tehnika_sposobnaya_sbivat_samolety_na_bolshih_vysotah

Also:
An Associated Press reporter on Thursday (2 days before the disaster) saw seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a gas station outside the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne. In the town, he also observed a Buk missile system, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-air-force-jet-downed-russian-missile-102817809.html
Quote by Neo Evil11
If it's so pro-Ukrainian, then why is it published in Russian?


According to July 2012 polling by RATING 55% of the surveyed adult residents over 18 years of age believed that their native language is rather Ukrainian, 40% - rather Russian, 1% - another language.[13] 5% could not decide which language is their native one.[13] Almost 80% of respondents stated they did not have any problems using their native language in 2011.[13] 8% stated they had experienced difficulty in the execution (understanding) of official documents; mostly middle-aged and elderly people in South Ukraine and the Donets Basin.[13]

According to a 2004 public opinion poll by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology, the number of people using Russian language in their homes considerably exceeds the number of those who declared Russian as their native language in the census. According to the survey, Russian is used at home by 43–46% of the population of the country (in other words a similar proportion to Ukrainian) and Russophones make a majority of the population in Eastern and Southern regions of Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine#Polls_2

BTW, the website has a Ukrainian version too.
Quote by Neo Evil11
It's probably Russian propaganda anyway. If that's the worst thing that is happening in the war, then seriously, it's not a war. Plus both sides are violent dickheads seriously. Russia has made this mess for their own personal gain.

Also stop blaming the right extremists like some communist puppet.

Actually I've got this video from the website of the established Ukrainian magazine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korrespondent Use a google translate and check the article yourself. You can check the other articles too, you'll see that it's mostly pro-Ukrainian.
Quote by Neo Evil11
Yeah because the rebels are not doing things that are waay over the top like I don't know, shoot a Dutch plane out of the sky.

I don't see how a shot down plane justifies torture of some random person.
The video is uploaded by Ukrainian "national guard" (voluntary pro-Ukrainian forces). It's labeled as "arrest of the separatist". At 1:25 they just beat the guy shouting "where are the weapons". Then this man with a heavy bruising is loaded into the car and taken into unknown direction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXnNDbJ7r0k
The video is hosted on Ukrainian website http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/3403264-kak-batalon-dnepr-zaderzhyval-podozrevaemoho-v-separatyzme If that's what they do in front of the camera, I wonder what's happening when the camera is off.
Quote by Neo Evil11
Idiot. They would give in before the seperatists revolted. To take quotes after the war started is obviously completely idiotic. Ofcourse he will be like: **** you. At this point.

Russia should stop supplying weapons to rebels and use diplomatic solutions instead.


17 of May, Yatsenyuk compared federalization to feudalism
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unian.net%2Fpolitics%2F919013-yatsenyuk-sravnil-federalizatsiyu-s-vozvrascheniem-k-feodalizmu.html&edit-text=

11 of April, Yatsenyuk says that federalization will create lot's of small Yanukovichs
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pravda.com.ua%2Frus%2Fnews%2F2014%2F04%2F11%2F7022145%2F&edit-text=

12 of May, Poroshenko says that federalization will split the Ukraine
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unian.net%2Fpolitics%2F917146-federalizatsiya-mojet-privesti-k-raskolu-ukrainyi-poroshenko.html&edit-text=

31 of March, Poroshenko says that Ukaine was, is and always will be a unitarian state
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.liga.net%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F1192670-poroshenko_zayavil_chto_ukraina_budet_unitarnym_gosudarstvom.htm&edit-text=

All of the above are Ukrainian newspapers. Strangely enough these statements didn't made to the western media.

What these guys were trying to pull off was smoothing the tensions with the obscure promises. They said that regions will get more power, yet opposed the federalization. They promised that everyone will be able to speak Russian, yet refused to make it as a second official language. And even on those obscure promises they've given they weren't too eager to deliver.

On February 23, 2014, the second day after the flight of Viktor Yanukovich, while in a parliamentary session, a deputy from the "Batkivshchina" party, Vyacheslav Kyrylenko, moved to include in the agenda a bill to repeal the 2012 law "On the principles of the state language policy". The motion was carried with 86% of the votes in favor--232 deputies in favor vs 37 opposed against the required minimum of 226 of 334 votes. The bill was included in the agenda, immediately put to a vote with no debate and approved with the same 232 voting in favor. The bill would have made Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels.

That's the second day after the overthrow of Yanukovich. Like, the guys overthrew the "tyrant" and decided to solve the most important problem in the country. BTW, note that the majority of voters were mostly the same people who actually voted for this law in 2012 (the Party of Regions). I wonder, why did they changed their point of view so quickly. Maybe it's the threats from right wing extremists that were crowding around the building of parliament? Oh, I'm sure it's not the case. It's just the members of parliament realized that they were wrong and felt guilty.
Quote by Neo Evil11
11 April: Ukraine's Interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk offers to devolve more powers to the eastern regions, as pro-Russia occupations in Donetsk and Luhansk continue.

Yet the "protestors" didn't stop, now did they?

Note that this all happened after Russia invaded Ukraine and stole a large proportion of their country....

June 8, Poroshenko's inauguration speech: "Ukraine was, is and will be a unitary state. Dreams of federation have no grounds in Ukraine."

"To live freely means to freely use mother tongue. I will be guided by Article 10 of the Constitution. It defines the Ukrainian language as single state language"

I wonder why the protesters didn't stopped?
Quote by Neo Evil11
And this is how I know you are brainwashed by your government. Because the majority didn't start this. You have the rebels that try to separate from the country and are using VIOLENCE in doing so. The reaction by the government is totally justified. You can't just let Russian rebels steal half your country. That would make no sense.

It would be if I decide to now shoot the government out of my province, and then start crying if they come back to reclaim the province for the country.

So you say that it' ok to use the violence to overthrow the elected president if he became unpopular? Yet using the violence to fight for secession isn't? And why is it so?

BTW, at first the demands of protesters in South East were federalization and Russian as the second official language. Till May the secession wasn't that popular.
Quote by Neo Evil11
The funny thing about Russia is, is that in every other country they are supporting the tyrannical government and are stopping the international community for stepping in. Yet now they are suddenly saying it is a humanitarian disaster and the UN should step in. The difference is that you have a minority trying to seperate from a democratically chosen leadership, whereas in the other cases you have dictators against whom the majority of the people are against.

Yanukovich was an elected president. And support of a majority doesn't legitimize a violent action against a minority.
Quote by Neo Evil11
Because the two things are not even remotely the same. the people in Kiev protested and got attacked by the government. The violence the protestors used isn't even remotely comparable to the war the eastern people are using. Plus the protestors in the West didn't shoot our frikking plane out of the sky.

Ukraine used the army in April, before the plane was shot down, before insurgents got it's first tank, before the first round of ammo was fired. In March and April protesters in the South East used the same methods as protesters in Kiev.

Of course, after the army was used, it escalated pretty quickly.
I especially like that part: "If the Russian people wouldn't be fighting, no one would be dying."

"If the Syrians wouldn't be fighting Assad, no one would be dying."
"If the Ukrainians wouldn't be fighting Yanukovich, no one would be dying."
"If the Czechs wouldn't be fighting during Prague Spring, no one would be dying."
"If patriots wouldn't be fighting during American revolution, no one would be dying."
Quote by Neo Evil11
If the Russian people wouldn't be fighting, no one would be dying. There is not some sort of genocide going on. You have some people that rose up against a government and used violence, and who are now being pushed back for that. I have read all your posts on this page and it is clear how badly you have been affected by Russian propaganda. It clearly shows how Russians still can't think for themselves. Honestly, we shouldn't even be trading with a backwards country like yours.

Here is the question I've asked countless times yet never was given an answer: what is the difference between the people in Kiev who rose up against a government and used violence and the people in Donetsk who did the same? Both parties were attacking police, occupying government buildings and sizing the firearms.

Yet when Yanukovich used police against the first he was condemned by western powers, but when Poroshenko used the army against the latter he got full support and encouragement?
Quote by Arby911
Your opinion is noted. I disagree, but I respect your input.

Agreeing to disagree might be the only rational behavior in our situation.

I hope that at least the facts that I post in this thread and that don't always exists in western media will contribute to your understanding of the situation.

While I'm glad that I'm able to test my arguments with someone who clearly disagrees but at the same time not highly radicalized.
Quote by Arby911
Yeah, it's pretty much a given that sanctions harm the economy, and harming the economy harms the people.

But...it's not quite what you've presented it as. It's not about 'forcing' the insurgents, it's about stopping the arms transfer to them. If the Russian people are angered by US (and European, lest we forget in our haste to smear those bastard Americans) sanctions, perhaps they should look to their own leadership to resolve the issues that led to the sanctions?

Massing troops on the Ukraine border probably isn't the best way to project peaceful intent , eh?

I have no bias against Russia or the Russian people and despite growing up with the cold war I would much rather see Russia as a partner and ally, but just as we have leadership concerns here in the US, you need to clean up your own house as well...

Ukraine used all means possible to eradicate the protest movement between the population of Lugansk and Donetsk. It started from the arrests of the activists and attacks of the right-wing extremists then escalated to the use of military force. Now with full support of the US government Ukraine's army is killing Russian people. And you think that I should be angry with my government for supplying the insurgents who fight the Ukrainian army and that making my life miserable will persuade me somehow. Sorry, but it doesn't work this way.
Amnesty International accuses Oleh Lyashko the leader of "Radical Party of Oleh Lyashko" of multiple violations of human rights, particulary kidnappings and tortures. I'm not able to find this article in English, so I'm giving you a link to google's translation of the Amnesty International's website: https://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=uk&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amnesty.org.ua%2Fnode%2F769

And here is the link to the results of multible polls conducted by Ukrainian organisations. The participants were asked for what party they'll vote in the elections that'll be held this autumn. http://ukraine-elections.com.ua/socopros/parlamentskie_vybory

Again, I'm not able to find the English version of the article. Lyashko's party is spelled "Партия О.Ляшко" in the poll results. In the first poll conducted by "Q&Q Research" on 29-th of july it's ranked third with 11% percent of the voters. In the second poll conducted by Kiev's Sociological University on 25 of july it's ranked the first with 12.3% percent of the voters. In the third poll it's ranked the second with 9.8% of the voters.

And here is the videos with Oleh Lyashko that were mentioned in Amnesty International report. At least one of them was uploaded by Oleh Lyashko himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRLzpPntiIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTb7efoe89I
Quote by Carnivean
Import ban eh? Supply goes down = prices go up. Econ 101. Sucks for an already struggling economy.


Lately I've been thinking about what you've said earlier:
Quote by Carnivean
The sanctions imposed by the US are designed to punish high officials, not the Russian economy. If Putin has been telling you that your country will endure a recession due to US sanctions then he's lying. That's not what they are designed to do, because the US Gov knows that pervasive sanctions like that could anger the Russian population and backfire in this scenario. But of course, Putin will spread that message anyway. Also, the EU also has a host of sanctions against Russian officials, it's not just the U.S.

Quote by US president Barack Obama
Sanctions are working as intended in putting enormous pressure and strain on the Russian economy. That's not my estimation. If you look at the markets and you look at estimates in terms of capital flight, if you look at projections for Russian growth, what you're seeing is that the economy has ground to a halt. It has presented the choice to President Putin as to whether he is going to try to resolve the issues in eastern Ukraine through diplomacy and peaceful means ... or alternatively continue on the course he's on, in which case he's going to be hurting his economy, and hurting his own people over the long term.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101900208

Dat feeling when your own president contradicts you. So it's quite simple: force the insurgents to surrender or we'll hurt your people. And you are damn right, these sanction do anger Russian population against the US.
Quote by Arby911
I'd say Putin's action will bolster the black market significantly. I'm a bit confused as to what he believes shutting off food imports will accomplish, since it seem it will negatively affect his own people more than anything?

Seriously, good luck!

Thanks!
Just an hour ago Putin decided to forbid most of the food import from the countries that imposed sanctions on Russia. As the resident of region geographically separated from Russia, which imports most of it's food from neighboring European countries, I must say that it's definitely going to influence my budget and diet :-)

Looks like it's the right time to buy myself some dacha )
BBC's report from the camp organised by Russian authorities for the Ukrainian soldiers who crossed the border in order to escape the fighting with the insurgents. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28652096

Russian officials said that all of the US news agencies except Bloomberg refused to vist the camp. Reuters rep initially agreed, but later changed his decision. Between those who declined the invitation were CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post.
This shell crater is really huge. Haven't seen anything similar during this war. The place is called Shahtersk, it's between Lugansk and Donetsk, relatively close to MH17 crash site.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMMoQC00nGA
Odessa, members of right-wing organizations and euromaidan supporters attacked the concert of pop star Ani Lorak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFVb8lK3EnE
The reason for the attack was that she hadn't canceled her concerts in Russia and hadn't expressed her patriotic feelings explicitly enough. Ukrainian source Surprisingly enough authorities raised the charges against the police officers, who tried to protect those who attended the concert. Ukrainian source

400 Ukrainian soldiers crossed the Russian border and surrendered to the Russian authorities. 180 of them were already sent back to Ukraine. This fact was confirmed by official Ukrainian sources. Soldiers left in the Ukraine all their weapons and munition, so it looks like the insurgents will get something to fight with.
Quote by Arby911
Yes, media is biased, so what? You appear to assume that because bias exists that I've automagically bought into everything that's been said, which is laughable. I've never been one to get my data from a single source, but when the majority of credible sources generally concur over time, it's a reasonable assumption that they've got the big items correct.

Accusing others of bias is a tired but time-honored tradition amongst those who would obfuscate the truth, so do carry on if that's your intent. Using a picture of an acknowledged failure over a decade old shows us what? At least the mistake has been acknowledged (repeatedly) in spoken word, film and print. Can you say the same for anyone else as regards the current situation?

Bias indeed...

I don't think that you are automatically buying everything that's being said. I'm sorry if I made such an impression.

But could you please tell me from what sources are you getting the information about the conflict? I've thought that it's mostly US/UK media and maybe occasionally Russia Today (which I suppose you consider the less credible source).
Quote by Carnivean
If you have stopped trusting Russian media, and the Russian media is just the Russian government speaking through a guise, then why would you trust the Russian government on anything either? Till has just regurgitated Russian government's constant conspiracy accusations, and then attempted to sell himself as being impartial by assuring that he doesn't trust Russian media.

If the russian govermet will make a statement about Earth orbiting the Sun, I will not automatically reject it as a lie. I used to laught at our domestic lamentations about biased western media. But due to the recent events I tend to question their objectivity more and more. It's hard to belive, but actually I'm quite upset by this fact. I never belived western media to be an Incorruptible Champions of Truth, but the way they are cobering the Ukrainian crysis is IMO below any possible standarts.
Quote by Arby911
It appears to have been established that the plane was shot down by Russian-Backed scumbags using Russian armaments, is it critical who posted the video?

The media is obviosly and seriosly biased against Russia. That is important. And you poses this bias too. And it's obviosly influencing your perception. Without recognizing the bias of the media, you won't be able to recognize your own bias. I'm not perfet either, but I'm able to get the information from all sources. Compare it, analyze it, realize that to some extent everyone is lying.

Sorry if it sound like some kind of a lame mentoring, but I do think that my interlocutors on this forum should show some more scepsis towards their sources.

I was really amazed when when someone (not you) was referencing Ukrainian goverment. Their PM said that the rallies for higher salaries were organized by KGB agents.

And unfortunately you goverment is not a very reliable source either
Quote by the bartender
1. This message was posted around the same time that MH17 was shot down. The chances of that being a coincidence would be extremely low.
2. If the fanclub posts about their hero shooting down a plane right after it happened, it is very likely that they are at least in contact with someone within the separatist movement.
3. The separatists are basically just a semi-disorganised bunch of ruffians. It's quite hard to tell who is part of it and who isn't. While I agree that media should mention that this social media group claims to not be part of the separatists, we can't say for sure that they really aren't.

These guys werent even first to post the video. Here is the screenshot of the original post. http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/17/mh17-matter-of-time/

The video on the right has a watermark and it comes from another group. This other group (http://vk.com/club61259467) buys videos from the locals. BTW, according to the dialogues in the background it was made by bystanders, not by insurgents http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUkqs9CQ0w
Quote by the bartender
Ok so if this is true then it wasn't him personally, it was just his unofficial fanclub boasting about him shooting down the plane. That doesn't really change much does it? It still points towards the seperatists as the guilty ones.

That logic is beyond my comprehension. How can something posted by the unrelated group of kiddies in the social networks point towards someone's guilt?

Then again, the newspapers said that it were the rebels themselves, not their fanclub. Maybe it's just me, but there is a huge difference between those two entities. The fact that everyone picked that story without even bothering to check it, makes me think that it's not just a striking example of unprofessionalism but a disinformation campaign.

I got used to such things in the Russian media, but I've always thought that western media should be a different story.
Quote by Arby911
I want some of what you're smoking.

I give up. This kind of argumentation is too difficult to challenge.
What really irritates me about MH17 story is that every magazine and every newspaper repeated the same lie about separatists leader boasting about a shot down plane in social media:

https://www.google.ru/search?q=Separatist+leaders+boasted+about+it+on+social+media

I'm truly amazed. Despite that the group strelkov_info had explicitly stated long before the MH17 disaster that it had no connections with the rebels, despite that Strelkov had previously denied having any accounts in social networks, despite that the group had been copypasting posts of popular Russian bloggers annotating them as "excerpts from the letters of insurgents" or "reports from the front-lines", despite all that, all the well-known and respected newspapers and magazines cited it as their primary source. I've seen the notion about the rebel leader using the social networks in every political magazine I used to read.

And it's like citing 9gag or 4chan. Like "rebel leader boasted about the shot down plane in the /b/. Screenshots of the thread were sent to United Nations". I would consider it ridiculous, even funny, if it was not connected with the tragedy that took 298 lives.
Quote by Carnivean
Putin is now doubling down in Ukraine. He fears blowback of losing this conflict and is confident given Ukraine disarray, and EU weakness in trying to punish him. If EU can just unite and act, this mother****er can be stopped. It's EU sanctions that can hurt Russia most.

Hopefully the new wave of sanctions will finally make Putin to realize that each time he folds under the pressure of the US, US becomes more aggressive and unreasonable. Maybe he'll finally realize that he's got nothing to lose and we are getting all the sanctions anyway. Maybe then he will finally act upon his own promises and protect the population of South-East.

The death-toll has reached 1100 according to the UN report. The actual numbers may be even higher. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/28/us-ukraine-crisis-un-idUSKBN0FX0O720140728
Quote by Arby911
It would be wrong if Canada did that, it would be wrong if the US invaded because of it and it's wrong in the instance at hand just like it would be in the hypothetical you've postulated.

The term "pro-Russian separatists" is a farce. Call them what they are, Russia's Puppets, so yes, it does mean exactly what I said it did, your feeble attempt to distance yourself notwithstanding. I'm not claiming that they have no grounds for their concerns, I'm saying that licking Putin's scrotum isn't the way to make it better. These folks are just a means to an end for him, a power play, and they mean less than nothing to him in the long term.

That's the same way the Russian media is bashing our opposition. Call someone a puppet and now you have a legitimate reason to ignore his opinion.
Quote by Carnivean
You should be opposed to everything your government is doing in this conflict. You should not deny that they are directly supporting and arming separatists and refusing to do their part to ****ing end this thing, nor that the taking of Crimea was nothing more than a political booster for Putin who's numbers were slipping and is the primary cause of the current bloodshed. Putin and your government are one and the same, and have been doing all of these things. Looking at your posts, you've done all of them too. It is plainly obvious that are a supporter of your government's decisions whether you realize it or not--your determined defense of separatists who likely downed the plane is clearly another case in point.

I still think that my dislike with the Russian government should not influence my judgement. In the days of Maidan, protesters were capturing government buildings, seizing firearms and attacking the police. The resistance of Yanukovych regime was severely criticized by western powers. But when the people of South-East started to do absolutely the same, they were labeled as terrorists. The same western powers that condemned the police brutality in the days of Yanukovych, supported the use of army against the protesters in South-East. That is what I believe the most revolting example of double standards.

I've asked you many times what is the difference between the actions of protesters in Donetsk and Kiev and I don't recall you giving me any answer.

Quote by Carnivean
The source you posted this time is a known anti-American, anti-west, and anti-mainstream media online journal that has no real credibility and its "reporters" have no real accountability. The site has a damn blinking donate button. Sources like these are only cited by idiots. This kind of source will accuse the U.S. of wrongdoing for every development without fail.

Judging the credibility of arguments basing on the quality of webdesign just doesn't seem right.

Before posting the article I've checked author's bio. He seems to archive some success in the investigative journalism. Besides he provides lot's of facts verified by other sources to support his argument.
Quote by Carnivean
Most of what you've these past few weeks is kind of garbage I have reasons, and the whole world has reasons to dislike Putin and your country's leadership. You support Putin, who supports the Assad regime in Syria, restrictions on free expression, and annexing weaker countries' sovereign territory. Thus, your words of support are garbage.

There is strong evidence that a Russian-made Buk missile (which the Ukrainian army does not have) took down the plane. These missiles (controlled by seperatists) were in the area before the plane crashed. There is also surveillance video evidence that a Buk system was moved back into Russia and is now missing from Eastern Ukraine.

I've explicitly stated that I'm not a supporter of Putin. I've participated in multiple anti-Putin rallies, even though such kind of behavior in modern Russia can get you a prison term. I've never voted for him and I spend part of my salary to support the opposition. People like me are labeled by Russian media as a Washington puppets, fifth column or even a CIA spies. I've got used to be called someone I'm not, but I'd appreciate if at least you could give me a break. And as you may guess I don't trust Russian media either, in case you decide to call me brainwashed as a part of your future argumentation.

As for the strong evidence you've mentioned, I've seen only those that was provided by Ukrainian side. I'm still longing to see something from the US. And it's not just me:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
Quote by Dreadnought
Yes I can, but I'm not a dumbass inexperienced separatist illiterate being told what to do by other political entities and not really understanding my own part.

Seems like an exact definition of Ukrainian army.
Quote by Carnivean
They Ukrainians have not been firing any anti-aircraft missiles because the insurgents don't have any aircraft.

1) Actually Ukrainian officials made multiple claims that Russian planes were crossing their border. So they could be thinking that it was a Russian plane
2) in 2001 Ukraine shot down a plane by accident and denied it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

I've made this argument before, but you seem to ignore it. Of course labeling everything you don't agree with as a "garbage" seems easier.
Lugansk, the aftermath of the artillery strike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ1mxrbyaz0