Election Day: Meet The Candidates

It's time to go to the ballot box and place your votes. But who will you choose? Let our last minute summary of the contenders help you out.

Election Day: Meet The Candidates
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It's election day in the US, and by all accounts it's a pretty close race. With a 50/50 split between voters, both Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are rushing around the last battleground states to win last-minute votes. If you're still undecided, here's our guide to what each President stands for, based on the latest data from ProCon.org.

Mitt Romney

, Republican In the red corner we have Mitt Romney, born in 1947 to Mormon parents and later became a businessman worth around $200 million. Romney draws controversy for his stance on abortion. He once said it should remain a legal option in America but changed his mind, and says parents should give permission before minors can have one. He believes the deficit should be reduced without raising taxes, which could win him many votes, but he could be lucky to achieve it. Somewhere along the line he wants the government to subsidize the big oil companies, and supports their aim to start drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Despite this, he has the ear of congress and appears more likely to push economic policies through. Supported by: Gene Simmons, Ted Nugent, Dave Mustaine

Barack Obama

, Democrat In the blue corner we have Barack Obama, the first black President. Born in Hawaii in 1961 (unless you're Dave Mustaine or Donald Trump, in which case he was born and raised in Kenya). He made it to the White House with a promise to change America. But whatever the reasons, many voters are disappointed that it couldn't be delivered in the way they expected. He wants the legal drinking age to stay at 21, and thinks felons should be given the right to vote. Unlike Romney, he's likely to raise taxes to help pay for the deficit. However, he's been pushing policies like Obamacare which would give basic healthcare to all Americans, and wants to increase financial aid for students. Supported by: Axl Rose, The National, Foo Fighters Whichever way you vote, just make sure you do it. There's nothing worse than wasting your rights. Which way will you vote today? Can you think of other reasons to help persuade your fellow UG readers? Share your viewpoints in the comments.

489 comments sorted by best / new / date

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    masterofpuppies
    Ultimate guitar???
    EvilAlienSquid
    why is this article under the 'general music news' category? and why is it even here on ultimate guitar?
    cyclonus
    Probably due to the candidates' endorsements by all those musicians who think they know politics
    KingV911
    Voted for Obama last week. I had cancer four years ago and haven't been able to buy private insurance due to my preexisting condition - despite the fact I haven't had cancer for four year now. "Obamacare" is my one chance at getting some.
    Arr0wHead
    "Obamacare" was invented by: Mitt Romney. So really, if you're voting based on health care, either party is identical. "Obama care" was rolled out statewide in Ma. under Romney long before Obama was elected.
    Arr0wHead
    And having delt with it a few years now: 1) affordable and free health care via mass health? Great idea. 2) Pre-existing conditions? Still loopholes allowing an insurer to deny coverage for a full year due to previous conditions. 3) Affordable care has led to a glut of sub-par cut rate insurers being picked up by companies here, leading to worse care in the workplace, not better.
    Arr0wHead
    For those voting it down, share why, as it's my experience with the current system in MA, which is exactly what we're discussing here.
    EpiExplorer
    Because your insurers dont think its worth their time to up their standards (or even upkeep the standards) for having to do more work/get less money. Its another example of business run government, it doesn't work. Either get rid of the insurers entirely or empose stricter and more defined laws. You cant suddenly see the change over night, there has to be a dismantling then rebuild of the system first.
    rockerwannabe
    Sorry for your condition. The Big C has affected my family as well. However, health insurance is not a right.
    KingV911
    It isn't, true. Should it be? Yes, and it will be in 2014. I don't know why you would want to deny a person the right to buy health insurance. You want people to live in fear of being financially devastated if they get sick? Seems psychopathic.
    rockerwannabe
    Health insurance is like any other type of insurance and the providers are in it to make money. Life can suck at times, it's the bare naked truth. So if you get sick, why should a company have to pay your way? When a terrible driver wants auto insurance, guess what? He or she ain't gonna get it. Or at least they will pay an exhorbitant premium. AND ABOVE ALL, THIS IS NOT THE MATTER FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO DABBLE. WHERE IN THE CONSITUTION DOES IT ALLOW FOR THIS SORT OF LEGISLATION??? Justice Roberts be damned!
    KingV911
    You are comparing optional car ownership against treatment for health maladies? Nice. Yes, you are right -- the better option is to have private, for profit companies get rich off of people not getting covered for their health needs and instead either die, go into bankruptcy and financial ruin. I like your style. When you reach your last days and know that death is near it'll be nice knowing you can look back and think, "at least I protected health insurance companies from losing money on those people who were sick and needed coverage. Now I can die in peace."
    WhoAMEye
    Putting this here cos it needs to be said. KingV911 wants to buy insurance he is not scrounging/ stealing whatever. But because he has a history of expensive disease insurance companies WILL NOT SELL IT to him because he is to high risk. That is Criminal, truly Fucking Criminal. So to samhell and you supporters I am so so very pleased at the good news that the rational sensible man was re-elected. KingV911 my sympathies I hope your president is allowed to deliver for you.
    robbie.thecloud
    i hope u get ur treatment bro...and why did this start some much trolling???
    KingV911
    I did get my treatment, as stated... and I really didn't think this would be so controversial. In a country as rich as ours it doesn't seem to crazy an idea that everyone should be covered and not have to worry about financial ruin if they get sick.
    samhell
    No offense, but you are ok with stealing my money to pay for your treatment? I don't care about your beliefs, but just so you understand where your "free" healthcare is coming from. I need a new truck, think you can pitch in little cash to help me out?
    cdsnzeevnaja
    Yes, because needing a new truck, and needing treatment for cancer are CLEARLY equally important, right?
    samhell
    It is if that truck gets me to work where I get paid and then consequently robbed to pay for said healthcare...
    BudSlayer
    your an idiot
    samhell
    Another well thought out argument with clearly defined and fact based dialogue. I am also humbled by your superior mastery of the English language.
    fromzero
    If you had a 4 cylinder or hybrid in the first place your gas savings would equal a new truck. You need to lay off the pain pills and climb out of the woods son. There is a whole world out there and it doesn't revolve around you.
    samhell
    I disagree. My world does revolve around me. And the reason I need a new truck is because that puny 4 banger just doesn't cut it anymore. Hybrid? No. And I much prefer the woods. The animals are better people than... people.
    mat hazelwood
    as much as samhell seems like an *****, it would take decades im guessing for gas savings to equal a new vehicle. hybrids when not subsidized take 10 years or more to pay themselves back due to their higher price, the environment should be the reason to buy a 4 cylinder not incremental gas savings.
    My Last Words
    Yeah, call me an idiot as well, but I don't understand the hate. What's wrong with having an opinion ? I'm not saying I think he's right, but think about it..
    lankeysob
    You're an idiot.*
    oftenbanned.
    How about this.... Your a selfish idiot. I understand your need for transportation to get to work to earn a living but don't lash out at someone who clearly needs treatment. It's not stealing if the money is used for it's intent. "Obamacare's" intent is to provide health care for everyone and ensure that people have insurance. The so called stolen money that you are so worried about is gonna really get stolen when they take it from you anyway to pay for all the people that show up at hospitals with out insurance. Yeah that's right your taxes pay for that!
    samhell
    Taking something from someone else without their consent is STEALING. Period. It does not matter the intent or what it is used for. Stealing is wrong. I guess this basic tenet of life is no longer taught to today's youth...
    goingnowhere21
    The government dispersing money they got from taxes to programs is stealing? No one is literally coming to your house, taking money out of your pocket and using it for their own need. If you have a problem with the system, move elsewhere.
    samhell
    What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Government thugs show up at your house with guns and extract that wealth from you... This is stealing. This has always been stealing. The definition has not changed.
    goingnowhere21
    And they have that right. If they're putting money into this country so businesses can prosper and so that more jobs can get created, the job you're working wouldn't be possible without the government taking initiative. So you're telling me by working at a job that the state invested into making sure is there, and you're not giving them some kind of return, plus some money so that businesses like the one that pays your bills can function, suddenly that's stealing? Just because something doesn't benefit you doesn't mean it doesn't benefit everyone, so quit your bitching about how it isn't fair because frankly, you won't do anything to change it. You don't care enough to even try except posting on an internet forum to a bunch of strangers. It's always easy to criticize what other people do behind a screen, but when it comes to action, you're just going to sit there and do nothing, so for everyone's sake, just stop posting, because its frustrating as all hell seeing a grown man act like a child.
    Meikle Treikle
    What about the roads you'll drive on every single day with your new truck? I guess you 'stole' that money to construct a road network to connect you with other towns and do your trucking on? Either that or you built it all by yourself.
    !..!_Rock_!..!
    I have a problem with the system. I'm not going to move. I like it here. I will vote to change the system.
    plindqui
    "Taking something from someone else without their consent is STEALING..." You consented to have it taken from you when you decided to live in the United States of America. Each and every American consents to pay taxes to the government in exchange for government services. You can't demand the same protections and freedoms as everyone else in the country but refuse to pull your weight like everyone else.
    LastBaron
    By living in this country you've consented to pay taxes dumbass. otherwise gtfo
    Motorhed95
    ACTUALLY, (coming from a law student): For something to be a crime there must be an act or omission [eg the physical action of appropriating someone else's posessions] and the requisite mental element to dishonestly/wickedly deprive the other person of what they own. Therefore, intention DOES matter. You are an idiot.
    samhell
    As a law student you will know the difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum.
    samhell
    I love how you guys keep calling me an "idiot". Really helps bolster your point of view. It might sound pretty cool on the playground of your schools but when you guys grow up that doesn't really fly in the real world.
    RagingFist
    Samhell, I can totally understand your point and I also understand your view on money beeing stolen from you. But you have to think about the fact that your money that's beeing spent on other peoples health care will come back when people spend money for your health care. It's a everyone for everyone trade.
    samhell
    My issue with it is about choice and freedom. Its great that people want to be altruistic and "help" others. By saying "no, I will not contribute" I am also saying "no, do not help me". Unfortunately people these days seem unwilling to afford others that freedom.
    DanC117
    Your profound lack of knowledge and understanding of how things work in the world is quite impressive sir.
    damillion
    The difference is this: If there was no government people would be allowed to freely steal your money without any consequences. Now there is a state that indeed, does steal your money. However it goes to building communications, giving people jobs, granting you and others an educational system and a medical system and so on. You've got to take into account that most businesses or people would not be able to afford any of these things without the state. And if you lived in a society which was unhealthy, uneducated and without communications businesses wouldn't thrive, resulting in that you'd probably have less money and a lower standard of living for that reason alone...
    !jared!
    I in fact have cronhns disease and may not be able to get health insurance because of it. But i voted for Romney. Don't increase my taxes to help out someone else. We already have enough taxes. Romney would have each state decide on a health care program that works best for the people of the state. To me that makes the most sense.
    samhell
    I also have Crohn's. It sucks but I deal with it myself and ask nobody for anything.
    soulgrenade
    Ah yes, the classic "your an idiot" comment. Never get tired of laughing at that.
    the_modfather
    So what about if you get cancer but you can't afford treatment because you bought a new truck...
    samhell
    Than that is a decision I'd have to live with isn't it? You are all children here right? Don't you play video games? What does every adventure game teach you? SAVE MONEY FOR HEALTH POTIONS. Nobody cures your ass for free.
    leonkennedy74
    It's difficult to have a conversation of any merit with someone who is a narcissist, and whose values only support themselves. I'm a Libertarian, which means on most points about large government and big government spending, I agree with you, but the fact is that you're paying for the emergency care anyways - hospitals are required to treat emergency patients when they come into the ER. You, by not paying taxes, detriment the people of the United States because when you crash that aging truck into a tree, God forbid, because the brake lines have seized or something, you still have to be taken to the hospital regardless of your insurance options, and doctors are still obligated to treat you. You want to talk about stealing, that's stealing. In addition, the "pre-existing condition" crap from these insurance agencies is simple exclusion of a large group of individuals based on their age, and disease that may not have any practical, day-to-day defense mechanisms. If you get cancer, or Alzheimer's, or some other degenerative disease, I should hope very much that you have said all of the prayers you'd like to say, because you never know when it could be multiple Myaloma, and you'll drop dead the next day, or if it's Alzheimer's, and you won't be able to say goodbye.
    samhell
    You do not speak like a Libertarian... I think I'm going to have to call BS on that. Just think, if the hospitals were not obligated to help anyone do think people would be a bit more careful with their lives. Maybe do things like insure proper function of their truck's brake system? Lay off the cheeseburgers? Stop yacking on the phone when they are piloting said truck?
    leonkennedy74
    That's, as you say, "a very well thought out, and factually based statement" regarding your doubt of my Libertarianism. You seem like a redneck on here, but then again, it would be bad of me to make an unfounded, outrageously bad argument regarding your social affiliation, wouldn't it? Hospitals are obligated to care for injured people because it is the obligation of a Doctor to help people - part of the Hypocratic Oath - and per capita, the value of absorbing health care costs into the system, for a working individual to continue working, as opposed to dying, outweighs the cost of the healthcare in terms of GDP output of this individual. The same can be said of retired persons who have paid into Social Security their whole lives, and have paid their taxes, etc. The life choices of individuals have no pertinence to the requirement of healthcare for the general populous, because not everyone has, per se, Type 2 Diabetes. Many people do have Alzheimer's, or Multiple Myaloma, or are hit by a deer driving in the woods, and have traumatic injury to their liver requiring a transplant. You continue to refute the pragmatic and practical, with counterarguments based on the infrequent and unlikely. We're not talking about a commune of 10 people living in the woods who have to be educated on how to mend their own injuries and be careful when setting their snares for deer or something. We're talking about a population in the multiple millions here. The practicality here is that people need to be taken care of to some extent, to ensure the beneficial development of our posterity in this country, and denying individuals who need care for the sake of acquiring personal wealth is hardly a good Christian sentiment. Greed is a deadly sin Samhell.
    ljpfahey
    I think samhell is a professional troll, President of the swamp. If not, then you shouldn't drive a truck because you clearly can't see past the barrel of your gun.
    rhino1957
    And i'm sorry but thats how it should be..... I don't want to have even more of my hard eared money to go toward something I don't want/need. What happened to the America where we bought our own things and didn't have the governement pay for everything for us?
    samhell
    Careful... Speaking that common sense and personal responsibility stuff will get you labeled a "troll". You will be under me though because I am President of the Swamp, apparently.
    jpcl
    Samhell, don't even bother posting here. I'm backing you on this discussion you've been having, but your not going to change anyways minds, so just leave it. You've shown commitment to your way of thinking, and I admire you don't give in, but it ain't worth the fight. At least you know someone else here thinks like you, and I thank that thought myself as well. Your posts have even been downrated so much, so people who don't even have a constructive opinion or idea about what you guys have been talking about will just barge in and try to prove you wrong for the fun of it. And for last, not that this thread makes even any sense being here, I'll "play along" and cast my opinion: I don't care for any of those two. People gave Ron Paul a chance to shine after so many years, yet they didn't let him see the "final round", so since people took away the only real politian who cares about his country, I wouldn't pick any of them, because picking one of them is like picking a team
    jpcl
    Samhell, don't even bother posting here. I'm backing you on this discussion you've been having, but your not going to change anyways minds, so just leave it. You've shown commitment to your way of thinking, and I admire you don't give in, but it ain't worth the fight. At least you know someone else here thinks like you, and I thank that thought myself as well. Your posts have even been downrated so much, so people who don't even have a constructive opinion or idea about what you guys have been talking about will just barge in and try to prove you wrong for the fun of it. And for last, not that this thread makes even any sense being here, I'll "play along" and cast my opinion: I don't care for any of those two. People gave Ron Paul a chance to shine after so many years, yet they didn't let him see the "final round", so since people took away the only real politian who cares about his country, I wouldn't pick any of them, because picking one of them is as relative as picking the colour off a lighter. You pick a random one because colour is just the outside image. In the end your picking a lighter either way. So yeah, they're all the same republicans and democrats.
    samhell
    I agree with you. I'm not here to change anyones minds or opinions. For me its more of a social experiment. You already know how people are going to react to something you post but every once in awhile somebody will post something interesting even if I completely disagree with it. I respect that they put that much thought and research into their opinion and are able to articulate it well. I can't say they are wrong because this is all subjective anyway. I can just say I disagree. The funny ones are the types that can't tolerate someone having a differing opinion as them. These ones I admit to trolling a little bit for my own entertainment. I do this on several boards, liberals and neocons. I will have to say that the liberals are actually less tolerant of differing opinions than the neocons, surprisingly, given that they always preach peace, equality, and tolerance...
    Aays
    Remember the days when rednecks didn't have internet connections?...
    samhell
    Rednecks are the backbone of America. Don't forget that.
    Superperfex
    Rednecks are the funnybone of America. It's there but it's not important.
    samhell
    You like eating right? All the farmers I know are what you'd consider to be a redneck. Given the logic of the folks around here, I guess yeah, you're right... food isn't important.
    Heideck
    meath is comming from Brasil and Sount America these days... We don't even have US meat anymore in Quebec
    gunsnroses#1
    There are only like, what, four major companies that cultivate and distribute food to the majority of america now?
    samhell
    This redneck is also a network engineer, so yeah, I know a tiny bit about the interwebz being that I help you connect to it and all that...
    EpiExplorer
    You help some people from some places, somewhere in America, you're just randomly waving your self-righteous penis around like its something special.
    samhell
    I have to be careful waving my penis around. It can level villages.
    stonedhippos
    you are a redneck? this is a mother****ing invitation, the only one you will ever need.
    samhell
    I don't consider myself a redneck but people always call me one so I just roll with it.
    TriAxe222
    Anything with the word redneck in it has - votes. Better to be a redneck than a wine tasting fart sniffer.
    L2112Lif
    If you have the internet, yooooou might not be a redneck. This, however, does not preclude you from being stupid.
    Bob_Rock
    Well I'm European and what you're doing is very impolite and discriminating, rather throw down some good argument than making fun someone because of regional differences. It seems a kind of racism in here? Your post sounds ridiculous to me.
    Ghostmaker
    Go **** yourself, how bout that?
    samhell
    Well that was a clear and concise argument with well thought out and articulated points highlighting your superior intellect. Good show!
    MaXiMuse
    samhell, how can you not understand that anything you'll say will just be 50 red thumbs at least. This is not the place to start political discussions and it seems to me that the majority here is Obama-supporter so I think that whatever you won't be taken seriously. If stuff like "Go **** yourself, how about that?" get 59 thumbs you know it's not going to be a real deep discussion...
    karstaag666
    I don't support Obama or Romney or any of your candidates. I'm British. However what Samhell has said is disgusting. His truck for work is more important than another person potentially being saved from a life threatening disease? Give me a break. If you could see past your own personal greed you would realize the benefits such a system provides. Sure you lose a bit of money but it's not just there for others, it's there for YOU. Deficit of health is unpredictable mostly, what if YOU were inflicted with a life threatening illness and needed financial help to overcome it? Or is your truck to work more important? Surely there are other solutions outside of getting a new truck that could help your work problems. If a guy can't afford treatment for their illness then they're mostly screwed and will die. If you can't get this picture then you are selfish and don't deserve help from anyone in this world. You give and you receive when needed.
    samhell
    Got it. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
    Arr0wHead
    What are you talking about? This isn't about free health care at all.
    samhell
    Uhm, did the poster not bring up Obamacare? That is free healthcare...
    Arr0wHead
    No, it's "affordable" health care. Don't get your education from bullet points, folks. Especially points from negative ad campaigns.
    samhell
    So when a doctors visit costs a few hundred dollars and you only pay twenty bucks, where does the extra money come from to pay for it?
    Arr0wHead
    The insurance company, who I pay around $5000 a year to in premiums. Really, don't look here for education. But DO look for it, because you need it.
    samhell
    But you have the choice to pay or not to pay for your insurance. Nobody is forcing you to do it. That is the difference.
    Arr0wHead
    And when you chose not to pay, you turn down all medical treatment? Or do you go to the emergency room and then default on the bills, forcing others to pay for your treatment through rising costs? So back to your original argument - why do you think I should pay for your medical treatment, samhell? Get insurance, pay for your damned self. I'm not yer daddy.
    samhell
    Exactly! Now you are understanding. Other than that defaulting on payment bit... If I didn't have the money or insurance I wouldn't go in the first place. I won't place that burden on anyone.
    Fender52
    Ya know, arguing over the internet is kinda like winning the special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded.
    godisasniper
    It's not free. In fact, Obamacare requires those who can afford to, to pay for healthcare. What the person you originally responded to is getting is not free, but he will actually have health insurance. I wish those who oppose Obamacare wouldn't characterize it as "stealing from everyone else" because it isn't. It's ALLOWING and REQUIRING people to actually pay into the system, instead of going into insane debt when they get sick.
    oftenbanned.
    It's not free healthcare jackass. People have to pay for it. It's just affordable. See my post above about obamacare!
    samhell
    Define affordable. If you, the end user is paying less, but the cost is still higher, where does that extra money come from?
    DisarmGoliath
    For the record 'samhell', we're coping rather well with 'free' healthcare in the UK/most of the civilised world... typically our healthcare systems are ranked higher than yours, too.
    samhell
    That is a lie. I have family in France and that isn't what they tell me. Also, when people need major operations, why do they always come to the U.S. to get it done?
    EpiExplorer
    Because despite this awful system of healthcare you have, the US is still one of the places where medical advances are being made, hence, the best machinery. I live in the UK, I've experienced US and UK healthcare, the US hospital made us pay around $70(!!) to confirm that I had 'stifling jet lag' and not some hideous gut disease from all the burgers and fries. When I got back to the UK, they then CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED IT AS STOMACH FLU. They did this in the same amount of time as it did in the US hospital. FOR FREE. Plus, I've had braces since I was 16, finally got them off at 20, only had to pay for one replacement in 4 years, everything else free. Do you know how much they normally charge for braces? 1300 - 2500. Also, freaking watch Michael Moore's documentary on it.
    samhell
    Please realize by dropping Michael Moore's name and referencing one of his documentaries you have just lost all credibility. That pudgy bastard has been proven wrong so thoroughly and so many times I didn't think it was possible for even the most clueless to use him as any kind of reference. Now to your point... Things here cost money. The more you pay the better care you receive, as it should be. We pay more here for a local hospital because the care you receive is awesome. The waiting room is not filled with a bunch of bums. The doctors are thoughtful and genuinely seem to care. Sure, we could go to the local Kaiser but its like stepping into a third world bazaar and the "doctors" really don't want to have anything to do with you. And about your braces... How do you figure that they were "free"? A doctor must be paid. Electricity in the building must be paid. The nurses, office assistants must be paid. The metal in the braces must be mined, refined, and manufactured. What about the shipping? The glue? The tools used to install them? Who pays for all of this? How is it "free"?
    EpiExplorer
    Money is not ours, it is much like the oxygen in the air: The stuff you take in and give out inevitably ends up in someone elses hands (or lungs, if sticking with the analogy) and 95% of it is a invisible. What I'm saying is, its not technically your money, and its ultimately not up to you what you can do with (most of) it. Did I pay directly for the braces? No. Was I taxed for them? No, I didn't have an income to tax. Your view of 'free' is attacking a strawman that I didn't propose. We in the UK have standardized healthcare: Everyone gets equally treated without the need for stupid insurance, paying private just gets you more specialised/faster treatment. In the US, there's a low bottom line for what you must pay for less than adequate treatment, or even assessment, with a polarizing bracket for the rich who can afford 'the best'. Its business strategy, which is exactly the wrong way to go about running a government and all of the needs it has to provide for. And of course there's profit, its freaking corporate America, where people freaking pay for freaking healthcare, you blind toss.
    AcousticMetal99
    So, I presume you would be perfectly happy with a world in which the majority of people who became ill with diseases or injuries simply died (the fact is, most people don't have the money to pay for the full cost of operations, etc)? In the end, you would end up in little villages again, disconnected, and with only what you could pay for? Your job would go out the window! Aside from that, the doctors "seem" to care, because you're paying them to seem like that! And another reason people go to the USA for treatment is because bodies like the NHS waiting lists, for those who need the treatment most. I should also point out two more points. Firstly, insurance companies charge way over the odds to make huge profits - they could easily absorb a lot of the cost, secondly (such as in the UK) taxes pay for things like the NHS, and roads, etc. That's not stealing - that's a system to keep the entire country running - I presume you now also want to argue that we should build our own roads, and use civilian defence schemes, because the military isn't free either - so who pays for them? By your logic, stolen money (which it isn't). I presume you also don't want anything like free education or libraries in the world? Another point, is that if you don't pay your taxes, there aren't thugs who come and beat you up - this isn't a Mafia country like Italy, for the most part. You will, however lose services and other privileges. Don't say "well, I don't need them so I'm not paying" - that is how the world will never progress anywhere. In the olden days, people used to care for one another - regardless of their wealth. Thus, if someone was ill, their friends and family would try to help them as best they could - may not be much, but it's called charity, altruism, and compassion. Then, it was the churches giving out alms to the poor, and caring for the needy. Moreover, if you ever lose your job (and quite frankly, I wouldn't employ someone with such simplistic, inane and mud-brained views as yourself), and had no money to pay for your health insurance or much food/mortgage any longer, can you honestly say you wouldn't want someone to help you? Or would you rather everyone ignored you, and said you should be able to look after yourself because no one else should at all?If that ever happens, don't expect anyone to. And finally, Americans are only there - in America - because the Native American Indians (and I could go on a lot longer about the injustices done to them - people with skills, knowledge, useful medicines, and the ability to work with and off the land without depleting it) helped those people who came off the Mayflower and other ships during those first winters. Without their charity (and they had no need to help whatsoever - according to your logic, they shouldn't have), you wouldn't even be there. If anything, you would be speaking Spanish from those going north from Mexico and Central America.
    samhell
    For your first part, I'd have to say yes. And I don't care about this job that much. I'm just as happy woodworking and building guitars, furniture, etc. Your second thing. Yes, that is how America works. Next, yes, build your own roads on your property and charge people to drive on them. I don't agree with free ANTYHING. And yes, thugs do come with guns and take things from you. Sure they send you a letter. Then they take you to court. If you don't comply eventually guys with guns show up. In the olden days, people got off their ass and worked and didn't loot and live off the government's teat. I wouldn't work for a socialist anyway... but if I did, I'd be one of the hardest working people you'd ever seen. It would probably freak you out wondering why I work so hard when others can just do it for me... or the government. Even while I "waste time" here arguing with children, I'm programming routers, migrating some server infrastructure, and architecting a national MPLS roll out. The only reason I have time to type is there is a lot of waiting for things to reload, test cycles, etc... For your last point, who cares? What does that have to do with anything today?
    AcousticMetal99
    Free nothing? I guess someone better start charging you for the air you breathe - people charge for food and water, and those are as essential for life as air. People still work, there's just a better support network for them. I'm not a socialist, but I do believe in supporting those who need it. Well, I'm glad you have a productive life - I also intend to work with computers, and to work hard. What does that have to do with today? Let me explain - if everyone had the same point of view as you, America would be a Spanish colony, if anything. You wouldn't be alive most probably. America would be completely different, because no one would have helped those Puritans, and they would have died.
    metallicmud
    We get taxed in Australia for carbon usage. That something you can't even see. Yes it's the companies that get taxed but they don't lose out. It's made it's way to our checkouts and just about everything we buy. In saying that I'm proud that we have free health system at least I know where my money is going. Not their own greedy pockets but maybe someone who needs a hand. So if you are such a patron American Sam you shouldn't complain about helping a fellow American out.
    samhell
    And that is why Australia will never rule the world... carbon usage? Who sold you on that line of BS? Never mind... if you voted for it, you deserve it. I don't complain about helping people out, I complain about being lied to and stolen from and not having choices or personal freedom in this supposed "land of the free".
    samhell
    And for the record, why do you think we are still making medical advances? I'll tell you... it is because there is still profit to be made. When there is no more profit, you wind up with the same crappy healthcare the rest of the world has.
    goingnowhere21
    You're lying DisarmGol!
    DisarmGoliath
    Actually do some research on where various countries in the world are ranked for healthcare, and which of those have private or public healthcare, and then say I'm lying. There's also a rather good map someone posted on here before, showing that America is pretty much the only major developed country without subsidised/free healthcare.
    samhell
    Ranked by who and on what basis?
    DisarmGoliath
    The World Health Organisation. You know, those people who are effectively the governing/advisory body for healthcare across the entire world. But enough of this, I'll leave you with some links to perhaps read up on... http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre... http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre... http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre... http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre... Have fun!
    DisarmGoliath
    Lol for some reason it replaced the three other links with a repetition of the first one. Meh, that was the most obviously-significant one anyway.
    goingnowhere21
    I'm sorry, I was being sarcastic up there lol. It's just really funny to me that he calls someone he doesn't even know a liar over the internet.
    kik0729
    They don't
    DisarmGoliath
    [Direct from the link] "The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18th."
    Hydra150
    Hydra150
    * referring to this remark by sam; ""Also, when people need major operations, why do they always come to the U.S. to get it done?"" False.
    samhell
    Yep, I'd much rather believe a bunch of kids on the interweb than MY OWN FAMILY.
    DisarmGoliath
    The problem is, you apparently seem to think your family - isolated in their ability to speak for, or research, the rest of their country's healthcare system - know more about this than the governing/advisory body setup to deal with these very topics on a global scale. In other words, you either didn't read my link or the thread Hydra150 linked to, or you are a stubborn, ignorant 'redneck' (redneck being the term you've adopted/accepted so far).
    samhell
    I know its funny to call me a redneck and all that, just want to make sure you all are ok with stealing from me to pay for things you couldn't otherwise afford.
    Hydra150
    It's called society, bro.
    samhell
    Its called stealing, bro. The mob, bro.
    Obama FTW
    Coming from an 18 year old who hasn't had health insurance for the past few years, I think Obamacare is a good thing. I haven't been to the dentist, eye doctor, doctor, or anything like that in 3years. So yeah its real fun. I got ringworm a few years back and I had to go to the ER just so I could treatment and that costs me about $200. So healthcare would be nice, but if its stealing from someone like you that really needs it, thats cool. I dont want to take your hard-earned money.
    samhell
    I've paid for my own insurance my entire working life (since 16, officially, 20 something years ago) and I've been to the doctors twice that I remember. Why exactly do you think Obamacare is a good thing? From your statement I take it that you like it because it doesn't cost you anything. Well the fact is that there is still a cost and somebody somewhere has to pay for you.
    Obama FTW
    Because I'd like to HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE! What don't you understand about that? I work part time and go to school full time. I'm not made of money. It would be nice if I got the flu, I could go to the doctor and not have to worry about paying $200-300 for the visit. And personally, if I HAD to pay money towards this whole Obamacare I wouldn't care because I would WANT others to HAVE health insurance. Im not a selfish prick. I care that others have insurance. If I had to pay a little more so others have health insurance, thats fine with me. Considering I may a little more above minimum wage, its a bit hard for me.
    samhell
    So because you can't afford something, we should have to fit the bill for you? How is that just? Whats wrong with saving some money for health care instead of buying that shiny new iPad/iPhone/?
    AcousticMetal99
    And when the entire population of America pays (let's see, around 300 million people), how much exactly does that cost per person?! You are also forgetting that (and I presume this is how it works) those who earn most pay most (as in taxes). I object to overly high taxes, but it's only fair everyone pays a bit towards the benefit of society as a whole.
    hadlow94
    Dude, you arent the only one paying for it. And you seem to be the only one here that has a problem with it. When it comes down to it, your contribution would be a fraction of a cent. You are acting like a selfish prick.
    metallicmud
    Then you've made some fat bussinous tycoon really rich samhell. When it could have gone into building a better place for you to live. My hat goes of to you for your logic mate!
    Kueller917
    In any society you give up freedoms, money, privacy, property, and a lot of things for the sake of the group. I don't care when or where it is that's pretty much the core of what society or community is. You're free to be an anarchist if you don't accept that, although I can see how that can be hard in a globalized era.
    TimLarkin
    Youd be singing a different tune if you had cancer and couldnt afford the outrageously expensive medication and treatments. Show some compassion and care for your fellow human beings. People like you are going to set the world back to the the values of the '30s.
    samhell
    I might, but stealing is still stealing.
    TimLarkin
    I honestly hope you're trolling.
    samhell
    Hope gets you nowhere. Education and hard work is what it takes to survive. Obama scammed everyone with "hope" and look where that got them...
    TimLarkin
    I'm honestly sorry you feel that way. Without hope there is no motivation. Without motivation there is no hard work or will to get an education.
    samhell
    Hope doesn't feed your children. Getting off your ass and working does. This doesn't require hope, only the knowledge that if I work hard I will be successful.
    TimLarkin
    Working hard isnt all it takes, what if you get constantly laid off work due to a dying economy? What if you get constantly denied when applying for private insurance because you were born with a disease? Private insurance companies are some of the shadiest businesses that employ some of the shadiest people. These companies deny people healthcare because they have a disease. Where else does that apply in the world? Do you go to a car dealership only to be denied a payment plan because you need to drive to work? Do you go to the store to buy groceries, but have the checkout clerk deny you the food because you're hungry? Private healthcare only works for the people who don't have an urgent need for it, which in my opinion, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    samhell
    Sounds like excuses to me... Even in this economy its not hard to find work if you are a desirable employee. My wife has been laid off 3 times due to companies shutting down and was almost immediately been able to find new (and better paying) jobs. Why? Because she works hard and can back it up. Most of the people whining about not being able to find jobs are not people you'd want to hire for anything more than menial tasks anyway (and they still want $30/hr to do it...).
    AcousticMetal99
    Well done - because everyone one has the same awesome level of education. You seem to be ignoring that fact that some people aren't academic, or that companies closing down more than opening up means that there are a lot of jobs lost. Not everyone can just get another - well done to your wife, but she's lucky. People can work hard all their life and earn pittance. So please, think about what you say before typing.
    kartikc11
    you remind me of someone who had similar views and ruined his country... oh ya, every dictator crucified
    deadlydictator
    you sound like an *****, so **** it, i could give two shits if you can't afford a new truck. suck my ****in dick.
    samhell
    Wow, that was an amazingly intellectual response. It did come across as a bit selfish I will tell you. Without a truck, how can I get to work? How can I transport huge servers, batteries, and network infrastructure devices? The internet might go down if I don't get a new truck! OH NOOESSS!!!!! TEH INTERWEBZ!!!!! NOOOOO!!!!!
    DerekSoundGuy
    Samhell .. what about poor people, who cant afford to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for healthcare that they need? I hear you when you say that you've worked your whole life to pay for everything yourself, and I respect that. But there are people out there, who have worked hard, and life just sucks sometimes for them. They are poor, they've had some bad circumstances, and they can't afford healthcare. Health is something everyone should have a right to. Someone's health shouldn't depend on their wealth. Unfortunately you will get free-loaders in a heathcare system, but I see way more benefits than negatives with that system. The USA is not very high on the rankings of best countries in the world to live in. a large reason for that is healthcare, and widening gap between the rich and poor. The USA needs to come together, and support one another. In the long run, it will be good on the economy of the country as a whole.
    samhell
    What about them? If the poor people want help they can ASK for it. What they cannot do is DEMAND it. If we believe in democracy as much as we think we do they must accept being told "no" if that is the outcome.
    DerekSoundGuy
    Precisely what they're doing is asking for it. They are hoping they can get this healthcare (however it works) system in place. They are asking for it. Yes democracy is running the country, but it seems they might be more in favour of having it than not having it. As a result, democracy wins.
    Hydra150
    Hey, Sam, bro, u mad?
    samhell
    How can I be mad when you guys provide me with such entertainment? I just let it flow... let it roll.. its all good. I'm going to start passing out some little red scarves pretty soon though.
    hadlow94
    Even if you were responsible for that, which I doubt you are. You would be supplied a work car. Look at you just taking free things.
    sn00ze
    Hope you get a cancer.
    samhell
    Thanks. Very humanitarian of you.
    Mr Winters
    Just as humanitarian as saying "**** everyone who has cancer, if they can't pay they should just die and leave me alone"
    samhell
    I don't recall ever saying that. I do recall saying that people reap what they sow. If people want to make poor decisions in life and wind up with medical issues its not up to the rest of us to bail them out. Thats not to say perfectly healthy people don't get cancer and for them I do actually have compassion (and believe it or not donate money, goods, and time). The thing I find offensive is being told I have no choice and being robbed to "help" people. If someone is a prick their entire lives and then winds up with cancer and expects others to help them out, than yes, I'd say let them die. If people think I'm a dick for what I say here and I wind up with cancer (which I may or may not have already, we'll see) I'd afford them the choice to help or not. I'd never demand it (or even ask) from anyone. That is what freedom is all about. I'd argue that every single one of you who claim to be so supportive of "free" healthcare are really just looking out for yourselves. "If I support them, they have to support me". I choose to be honest and just tell you flat out I choose not to be robbed and in return do not help me. I am very much against collectivism and altruism.
    stratplayer1337
    WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK THIS IS A BAD THING, SERIOUSLY, this will help people, do you not ****ing get that because you're such an arsehole. most of the time, medical problams are not really anyones fault, its just chance, so put yourself in someone elses shoes, suppose you could afford health insurance? how would you fell, learn to ****ing empathise and stop being a selfish douchebag
    nathan:-)
    You do know that you can live a healthy, fit lifestyle and still end up with diseases like cancer, right? Unfortunately it is a fact in life that we can't all have well-paying jobs to cover our own health. Sure the system will get freeloaders, but as a whole more people end up better off. My reasoning: Take the hordes of Iraq/Afghanistan war vets who are out living on the streets of the US because they aren't covered by social security. They are willing to lay their life down for the people of their country,yet here they are living out on the street. Any system which benefits people such as these would get my support
    kartikc11
    and you think everyone starts on a level playing field with the same opportunities.. I am not even FROM America and I am astounded as to how much an educated 36 year old can rant on stupidity
    tilmitt52
    Well it seems like you are such a humanitarian yourself. Seems to me you're more concerned about helping yourself instead of your fellow man. And the last I checked the US was built on ideas of humanitarianism. But you're right, so when you need SSI, food stamps or any other government assistance because YOU can't work or find a job and provide for your family, I hope the person who decides whether you get it or not cares more for their truck than you.
    samhell
    I hope so too, honestly. If I am foolish enough to put myself in a situation like that than I truly deserve whatever happens to me.
    tilmitt52
    Believe it or not, not everyone who needs those programs "put themselves in that situation." It's easy to say you'll never be unemployed when you're employed. But you know what? Life sucks sometimes and it isn't fair. So it doesn't always work the way it's supposed to. The hard working people don't always get the jobs or what they deserve.
    samhell
    You had me until you said "deserve". Nobody deserves anything. You earn what you get. My buddy was having some hard times recently and instead of whining about what he "deserves" he started his own little plastics manufacturing business. He's doing quite well.
    kik0729
    Samhell, have you ever heard of something called Human Rights?
    samhell
    Of course. Its the coined expression politicians and corporations use every time they want to rob the people. They drop that term to compel you to fork over your hard earned money.
    metal@hart11
    im canadian so i come from a system that already taxes us hard to provide these things for us. i work hard for my money, i can still afford a truck, and knowing health care isnt something i need to worry about in case of an emergency is a privilege! its the price you pay for a standard of life that EVERYONE deserves! what happens if you get diagnosed with cancer say 5 years from now? looks like you better sell your truck bud!! you can have both you know
    samhell
    I work hard, save money, and pay for my own private insurance. I don't place that burden on anyone but myself. If I can't "afford" it, let me die. I don't want to live in a world full of freeloading socialists anyway. It will be my version of John Galt, to deny the socialists and looters my productivity.
    TheLukeMaxfield
    I just can't understand why healthcare should be available only to those who can afford insurance. Surely health is an unconditional human right? The healthcare system is something you really appreciate in the uk
    samhell
    What is it with insurance? You don't have to have insurance to get health care. In fact, if you pay cash its usually much much cheaper. Sometimes my wife will do that instead of messing with insurance (she is far more health conscious than I am).
    metalhead983877
    You wouldn't say the same thing if you had cancer or an important disease... God you're such an idiot...
    samhell
    Important disease?
    RagingFist
    He's talking about believing in god and stuff like that..
    stratplayer1337
    you made me LOL, but bro, that could be offensive...
    RagingFist
    Well, I was just abusing that preconception.. I don't have anything against religious people and it was not meant as an offensive statement, it was just a joke.
    RagingFist
    Well, I was just abusing that preconception.. I don't have anything against religious people and it was not meant as an offensive statement, it was just a joke.
    spiff-corgi
    And this... this right here. This is why the rest of the world has such a hard time taking America seriously.
    samhell
    Seriously about what specifically? I see the faux intellectuals on the internet use that phrase quite often but I question if they even know what it means...
    oftenbanned.
    This guy is a retard. I work hard too Sam. Not only that, I am going on my 15th year of military service. Sometimes it drive me crazy to know that I am fighting to protect the rights of retards like you! SMH
    samhell
    Military is voluntary service. You are free not to "protect the rights of retards like me". My whole family (in this state anyway) are Marines, and they are the ones who influence my point of view... so there ya go.
    AcousticMetal99
    Oh yes, and doing an important job like protecting your country, and risking your life at times, is free! If it was only volunteers, then 1) they may only do it for a few years, and 2) volunteer = no pay. So, who pays for their healthcare? You'll say that is stolen money?
    spiff-corgi
    It's hard to take a country seriously that is so, so inexplicably into this idea that "everyone can be amazing and incredible" to the point where they think any form of welfare is socialism. Every step towards a stable government that provides the basic necessities a government of an MEDC SHOULD provide is a step towards communism in the eyes of people like you. It's really, really disappointing.
    samhell
    Whats wrong with people providing their own basic necessities? Why does the government need to do it?
    Scarface88
    After having read this unnecessarily long argument up to this point, I find it highly ironic that you're talking about "faux intellectuals". Seriously, people who talk like that to make themselves sound clever should shampoo my pubes.
    Ishkaga
    See, the main difference between us Canadians and you Americans is that we were taught to share when we were children. A teacher of mine once experienced a serious infection while down in the States to play Hockey, and when he finally got it looked after, it cost $20,000. Who has that kind of money to pay for an infection?? Seriously though, enough about politics, what the hell is this garbage doing on a guitar site?
    KingV911
    Free healthcare? Who said that? I can't even BUY healthcare because I get denied. I have been denied 8/8 times I have applied for private insurance. Fortunately at the time I had insurance which covered most of the costs - about $150,000 for three months of chemotherapy and related diagnostic tests. Outrageous.
    samhell
    Well your situation sucks, I won't pretend to have a solution. Sympathetically I'd want to help you out if you asked for it. Logically I'd want you to help yourself, as cruel as that sounds. I've had friends in the same position and other family members and friends banded together to help them out. As a side note, one old guy I knew went through the same thing you did. He had one son prior and after he had his nuts removed he had only daughters. We all gave him a tough time about removing the wrong one.
    KingV911
    Not everyone has friends and family who can band together and cover hundreds of thousands of medical bills. I know that if I was stuck with the $150k for the treatment I'd be ruined right now - it'd be like having another mortgage. I lost my job with the insurance I had during treatment about a year afterwards and have since had to skip out on the routine follow up MRIs to make sure the cancer hasn't returned. At $5000+ a pop I can't afford them every three months as recommended. I get blood work done (next best thing) for about $500 and hope for the best. I consider myself lucky. If I, at the time, had a family with kids and all that - we'd have been devastated. On a side note, although I was told I may be sterile from the chemotherapy I gave birth to my first child, a boy, three months ago. Guess you only need one good one. The other one tried to kill me - good riddance.
    KingV911
    Keep in mind that my tx was textbook and went smoothly. $150K is cheap for cancer therapy. Another guy at the clinic who had the same cancer was diagnosed at a later stage and so needed very lengthy treatment. At the time he had been getting chemo for a year (which is unfathomable to me -- after three months I was so sick from it) and his bills were close to a half million dollars. They were so broke that his wife could barley afford to make the hour drive to visit him in the hospital. It's so sad. Not sure if he made it out alive, I hope so after all that treatment.
    KingV911
    and to make matters worse I had testicular cancer, so they took one of my balls and my ability to buy health insurance! and I lost my hair in the middle of WI winter!
    denzer1992
    I'm from germany and in germany you can go to as many doctors as you want, whenever you want and you will never pay a cent. You can go to school FOR FREE, you can go to the university FOR FREE and if you lose your job you will get an apartment FOR FREE PLUS 350 euro (450 $) every month until you get a new job, no matter how long it will take... of course you have to pay taxes for all that, but i think it's worth it... if mitt romney becomes president i feel bad for you!
    Scarface88
    I know a lot of people have a hard time admitting this, but if more governments, institutions etc were run like in Germany, the world would be a better place. Take the Bundesliga, for instance; a damn sight better than the EPL (in terms of ticket prices, players' wages, the fact that clubs have to spend within their means etc). I'm English, by the way, if that makes any difference to my point.
    pr0pedestrian
    First things first, KingV911 said he is unable to PURCHASE insurance. Meaning pay for it himself. In his case, Obamacare would force insurance companies to allow him to do so, with zero help from your tax dollars. Secondly, as a society, we should believe that nobody should be left to die because they don't make enough money, and nobody's lives should be permanently ruined by debt because they get cancer or another serious disease. It's your right to not agree with that, but please acknowledge that belief makes you a bad person. You're a network engineer? Do you realize that your entire career is based on use of a system you had no hand in building and had major contributions made by government? What about the public roads? Do you not drive your (as important as cancer treatment) truck on those? Sometimes, as a society, we have to pool our money together for the common good, and public health is about as important of a common good as there is. The bottom line is, if your view of government spending is that it should only be done when it benefits you, then you're probably just an *****. Is Obamacare perfect? No, nothing ever is. But it guarantees right to healthcare regardless of income or pre-existing health problems. Not only that, but it protects insurance companies by keeping people from buying insurance only when they get sick. It shifts the power back towards the middle instead of solely with the insurance companies, and it makes sure that people aren't dropped from insurance they've been paying for all their working life the second they really need it. There is a laundry list of horribly unethical insurance practices that Obamacare attempts to (finally) put an end to. To disagree with the means is acceptable, but to call it stealing is just ignorant and to disagree with its goals is immoral.
    Nerejo
    Your comments actually make some sense, and I can get where you come from. There is, however, something as looking out for the weaker members of your society. You are apparantly healthy and in no need of health care, that's fine. But some people were unlucky enough to get diseases that require high payment and they can't pay that on their own. Bit hard to work for your money if you have something like cancer. That's why it's up to the high earners of such a society to support people like this, so they can recover and contribute to society again. But that's my political opinion, and you can have yours
    Bob_Rock
    Ok man, I don't care where you come from, you have your rights and I respect that...But on the other side just think about it for a second, if a close member of your family someone like your mother, father, son, daughter, grandfather etc. was sick and you don't have enough money to pay for their cure or any kind of treatment, wouldn't it be helpful if there is some kind of basic insurance for all of Americans, where people can actually enjoy full medical treatment and live at least one more year of quality life spent in their family?? For instance, here in Europe we have basic health insurance for all citizens in country and of course if you want more medical treatment like operation, staying in hospital there is an extra paying for that, but it's not too expensive like in USA...Your health insurance is pure money and profit, there is no people in that, noone cares for a human life unless you pay good for it...It's really sad fact, so I don't understand phrases like "American dream"!
    samhell
    If that were the case, we would ASK others for assistance, not DEMAND it. That is freedom. We are free to ask, they are free to say no. If you think about it, money IS life. I exchange my time (my life) for money. When that is taken from me, you are taking my life. Those are hours of my life I can never get back. You think I want to lug around equipment and program routers all day? No... but there is a price that I will exchange my life for my skill.
    AcousticMetal99
    And what else are you going to do with your life? Sit and play computer games - with the money that you don't have because you haven't worked for it? Live in the house you can't actually buy, because you have no money for it? Seriously, what else is there to do in life, if you don't do a job, and learn. Life is all about learning - whether it's maths, or playing guitar, or learning how to beat a level on a game. There's more to life than money, but money is how the world goes round. And if you don't like the job, go re-train for something you do want!
    Bob_Rock
    Well, I have no intention to be any kind of a wiseguy, but what you stand for means something like anarchy.I believe it is normal for any country to set some rights and to DEMAND equality, otherwise it's a blind shot. I know it's not complete freedom, but hey where on this planet can you actually enjoy full freedom, c'mon? I understand your silent protest against your country trying to define the meaning of the word "freedom", but take a look around and you'll see that your country is meddling wherever and whenever it can. Luckily we in Europe are to skeptical about America's meaning of freedom, because when America was vast area with native americans in the past we already had constitutions, other laws and what you call civilization and I must admit how glad I am about that fact Seeing this discussion about health insurance made me think all of you across the atlantic ocean are in a big trouble and problems...
    samhell
    Not anarchy. I'm for what the Founding Fathers actually wrote in the Constitution. Many people in this country consider it an outdated document, but to me it is brilliant.
    Bob_Rock
    Human rights will never be outdated, but some opinions and prejudices certainly will. Being idealistic is nice, but in real life it's quite short-term. In this discussion you obviously saw how people are living by the principle of black and white, but everyone knows it's grey, polarization on + or - is an extreme stand, so we're all in the middle of something. I believe you're aware of that. Time for a gradual change? Nooo, it's just new clothes, actors are the same. The problem is that the Constitution is loud and clear, but the interpretations differs from person to person.
    samhell
    Thats just it. The Constitution is not to be "interpreted". There is mountains of supporting documentation that explains exactly what they were thinking about when they wrote it. Every single Amendment is very well documented beyond what is written in the Constitution. Its convenient that people forget about this documentation and then try to "interpret" what is written...
    little_boy
    Think of it this way: you're the one who didn't have an opportunity in life to have a good job that provided you with a good income. You have a serious disease that costs a lot of money to get treatment. Would you like that the state told you "f*ck you, work harder and get more money to pay the treatment yourself, if you can't do that, die."? You know, maybe its best if everybody pays a little so that everyone has a decent public health insurance in case of an emergency. We have that in almost every country in Europe and it works fine - it's not perfect, but it is better than not having anything. In a society, people help each other in times of need. Maybe you should think a bit more about others and stop thinking so much about your truck. If you were in need, I bet you would ask someone for help and you wouldn't want that person to think that you were stealing from them. As an european, my opinion isn't worth anything as I obviously can't vote, but since the US is an important and influential country - what happens there affects the rest of the world, I am worried that Romney might actually win the election. He is definitly not the person who should be President of the United States. I sincerely hope Obama wins today.
    Kueller917
    Private insurance rates go up anyways when they have to care for big problems. It's not much different.
    qrEE
    You're clearly idiotic samhell, so let me put this in terms you'll understand - 1)Taxes are just about required for a country to run. If the Government had no source of income (taxes), then the country would cease to function. 2)If you are one of those hick conservatives, you're probably a Christian. Did you know that Christ taught to help the poor and the suffering? And to help EVERYONE, not because you have to, but because you just SHOULD? And if you're not a Christian, there's still a social requirement to help people, if you refuse to help people and people refuse to help you, YOU DIE. You won't be able to live 100% on your own, you aren't ready for it. The kind of things you're saying are misinformed, bigoted, and actually kind of heinous. I can't believe you think that having to take the bus to work is as bad as CANCER. That's like saying that Hitler had some good ideas.
    samhell
    Yep... "idiotic". If thats all you can muster from your public education we can go with that. Altruism is for people that are easily taken advantage of. There is a reason kings/presidents/CEOs are rich and powerful and the altruistic are not. You can't follow a theory that says its good or noble to give things up and then bitch about what you don't have. You think Obama sacrificed anything (besides ethics and morals) to become king of the world? You think he genuinely gives a crap about anyone? Of course he wants you to give up your money for "the good of the people". It keeps him and his buddies rich and powerful. *You can replace Obama with Romney in the above and it will be just as valid.
    AcousticMetal99
    Actually, he has. He went to uni (studied Law I believe). Being President isn't a cosy, relaxing, cushy job with a bunch or perks - ok, he has power, but have you noticed how grey he has gone in the past couple of years? Happens to a lot of people with similar roles. He has to cope with stress, and heavy decisions, and the weight of knowledge. Also, could I point out that a lot of rich people give a lot of money to charity, and good causes - because they have the money, and they know they simply don't need that much. CEOs/bankers simply rake in money - they are ruthless, and if anyone is stealing from you, it's the big corporations and banks. And I'm not going to moan about what I don't have - I'll work hard for what I want, but I don't mind helping others if they are deserving (yes, that's right, the word "deserving"!).
    samhell
    Big corporations and banks are the modern government. You don't honestly believe there is anything other than superficial separation between them do you?
    AcousticMetal99
    Yes, actually. Sure, the government can be leaned on my corporations, and they have their own power, but ultimately, they don't make the national laws. Besides, what does that have to do with my points? You have failed to address any of them... I presume you simply have nothing of any worth or credit to say.
    little_boy
    Maybe sometime in your life you will need the help of others and no one will be there for you. You will then undestand what we are trying to say. I feel sorry for you, you will probably die alone and miserable.
    samhell
    Its happened plenty of times which is why I've learned to rely just on myself. If I can't rely on me, I may as well be dead.
    little_boy
    So that's why. Well, I hope you live a brighter future, and I hope that you at least understand that to have someone care for you, you have to do the same for others. Try to care about other people, and then maybe they will return their kindness when you need. But even if they don't return, help others anyway. Even if you do not benefit from those good actions, you are making the world a better place, at least for other people. There are good people in the world, who deserve everything one can give them. That should be enough reason for you to be altruist. I don't have anything else to say to you. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, if not, I doubt I can explain it clearer. Be safe.
    Eagerest
    People like you give America a bad reputation.
    samhell
    Productive people like me BUILT America. Somewhere along the line most of us have forgotten what America is and have sold our souls to the government/corporations with the false beliefs of safety, equality, and "healthcare".
    AcousticMetal99
    Technically, the original America from Western colonisation (not going back to the "Red Indians" or forward to the Constitution) was built by extremists and fanatics, for want of better words, who wished to impose their own stringent and radical beliefs on all those living there - they didn't want a land of the free, and democracy. Those early settlers didn't go there to escape persecution, but to create it for anyone who believed anything they didn't. And after that, America has basically always been run by corporations and the government - welcome to living in capitalist country!
    samhell
    More revisionist history?
    AcousticMetal99
    Just a few points to clarify how your arguments are invalid and unfounded. I quote "forgotten what America is" - I have just explained exactly what America was. And now, it is a capitalist nation run by centre or right-wing politicians. You people have no idea of left-wing. Anything left of far right is simply termed (quite incorrectly) Communism. It isn't. You even call things socialist when they are simply human rights (as defined by the United Nations themselves - I don't think you can argue with an international body like that).
    m4ss3 m/
    This is why free healthcare doesn't work in USA. Because the people are dumb.
    npo123
    Samhell, it's people like you who honestly make me scared for where the country could end up being as well as a little bit embarrassed about being an American. Other countries are reading your posts and making generalizations about how egotistical and small minded Americans must be. It all comes down to 'rights', and people have the basic right to see a doctor and live a healthy life. Having a health system created and run by private businesses prevents this from occurring. Earlier you said that competition creates advancements within the medical field. Based on this statement, I'm assuming that you like competition. If this is true, you also acknowledge that the private sector is going to be under a lot of pressure to compete with the government aspect of health care...therefore creating more competition and further advancements within the medical field. If this is true, why don't you support creating competition, more jobs (formed by expanding medical/technological research and development), and advancing medical knowledge?
    samhell
    Maybe I missed it but can you point out the part of our Constitution that says we have a right to see a doctor? Theres a lot of big words in there and a simple redneck like me probably just missed it...
    KingV911
    The constitution is great, yes. Had they known in the 1700's what healthcare in the USA would be like 2 1/2 centuries later maybe they would have mentioned it. Back then medicine was still archaic and they treated people with bloodletting. The USA of today is a different animal than the one envisioned back in the day.
    samhell
    They didn't have to know, that is the genius of the document. Its a brilliant framework. The rules then are just as valid today.
    npo123
    If you truly believe that the Constitution is perfectly written, what about what it says about taxes? The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and General Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.
    samhell
    You speak of the 16th Amendment ratified in 1913. This was not part of the original Constitution and its ratification was controversial at best. Even its intent though is not what we have going on nowdays with the criminal empire that is what we call our government.
    qrEE
    These parts - "Promote the general welfare" "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" Life has been firmly established as a RIGHT. It is the most important right, and to deprive someone from seeing a doctor is unconstitutional. P.S., later you said "The rules then are just as valid today." - like the rules of selling, buying, beating, and raping slaves? Or the rule of not letting women vote? The constitution's genius is in it's firm establishment of ideals, and it's openness to expand upon those ideals. Ideals which have never included selfishness, but only tolerated it for the time. Eventually we'll continue to grow and no longer will we have to deal with idiots who value their pick-up over a human life.
    karstaag666
    Tbh I wish the world would just shun people like this guy. If he thinks its stealing and would rather just fend for himself and not give a damn about anyone else then ship him off to an island where he can live with other likeminded folk. Would this island ever become a functioning society? Chances are not likely unless they change their attitude. You claim you are being stolen from, you claim you work hard for yourself and only need yourself. Think of it this way, if 30% (random number) of your country couldn't afford to live or required help but never got it, they would not have disposable income. That's 30% less people able to put money into what makes YOU money. Maybe if those 30% had the money, you could afford your truck. Society functions because when you lose money, it goes somewhere, it doesn't disappear. It travels the world being swapped hands constantly and eventually you get new money to replace it. If more people have the ability to spend money, you have an easier time at EARNING it. Get the cycle?
    npo123
    Sorry, I forgot to mention that you already wrote the following: "What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Government thugs show up at your house with guns and extract that wealth from you... This is stealing. This has always been stealing. The definition has not changed." Unless I'm not reading your comments correctly, it seems to me that you might be contradicting yourself on this one.
    SlayerOfTheHero
    Right mate, you ever get cancer, don't you ****ing dare go and ask for any treatment. Hypocritical ****, seriously,people like you need education.
    Nakama
    You're so thick. You pay tax right? The government can distribute the money it earns from tax however it wishes, and if that means Obamacare then so be it. I don't understand how this is different in principle to, for example, the government building and maintaining roads for the general population. If someone didn't have a car (or truck) and so didn't have need for roads would you think that they were being stolen from too? No. Open your ****ing mind. Almost every developed country (and many non-developed ones) have a national health care system, the 'American way' isn't always right. I live in England, and I know that the NHS was introduced because it was the most cost-efficient way of providing all with healthcare. And then if you want to pay extra for an arguably better standard of healthcare then you can join BUPA or other private companies.
    rockerwannabe
    You're the thick one, pal. My aunt was British and succumbed to cancer. When she was finally "allowed" to be admitted to the hospital, that's when they finally were given permission by the govt to conduct the tests to discover the cancer was all throughout her body - SIX F'N MONTHS LATER. In America, where my father practices medicine, he can order whatever test he wants, whenever he wants on any of his patients to make the proper diagnosis. Obamacare is going to end that ability of the doctors and put that decision making process in the hands of the bureaucrats. Don't dis the American system of privatized health care until you experience. Socialized medicine doesn't work anywhere.
    Nakama
    That's sad and I'm sorry to hear it, but I'm not saying the British system is perfect, nor any other for that matter. As in the case you mentioned, and I'm sure there are others, the American system has its advantages. But at a cost, a much heavier cost than some people can afford, and that's why a national healthcare system is so beneficial. As I said, there are private healthcare companies in the UK as well, if you feel that you need an enhanced service. Surely you can accept that this is ideal? Healthcare for everyone with the option of going to a private company. Also, you seem to have missed the point of my post, I was arguing that the government providing a healthcare service is not 'stealing your money' any more than the government using that money for education or maintaining roads. And as for your comment 'socialized medicine doesn't work anywhere' what a completely incorrect statement. It works in every other country but America.
    CiReMaN
    You are SOOOOO selfish, my GOD!!!
    samhell
    And? Look at all the leaders of the world, would you consider them selfish? Those who believe in altruism, how much do they have? Who do they lead? Is someone like John D. Rockefeller a person you would consider selfish? (not to place myself in the same catagory, to be sure)
    Ronald-Raygun
    Selfish ****ing ****, you are the problem with our country today. Do you not understand this is the kind of help some people need because their " current insurance " will not cover further medical costs. The private medical industry needs extreme reformation this federal influence might actually help our country. P.S. Stop trying to defend yourself, idiot...
    Redfinton22
    "No offense" < you are clearly trying to offend, and saying this just makes you look like even more of a prick. "stealing my money" < this isn't even true. "I don't care about your beliefs" < then WHY THE FUCK are you commenting?
    TheNumber6
    samhell, i didnt think i was possible but in this comment thread you earned your ass well over 1000 dislikes, you might want to reevaluate yourself. especially when you make a statement like "It is if that truck gets me to work where I get paid and then consequently robbed to pay for said healthcare..." because if youre trying to say THAT makes your little truck more important than cancer, you are gravely mistaken.